@tony-brams I've been learning how provenance is more important with certain things. Old stone Buddha heads for example - provenance is pretty much required so they can show it wasn't recently looted, etc. But good old ceramics usually can speak for themselves. So the good news is if you stumble upon an authentic Chenhua period chicken cup at a flea market, they're all going to want to sell it for you, even if you are an unknown person to them.

@johnshoe Thanks John, that's interesting regarding the buddha heads.

Do you know why lack of provenance is ok when it comes to porcelains but it's a problem when it comes to carved gemstones?

@tony-brams,

Provenance is important with all types of Asian Art including gemstones. Especially if you are trying for a imperial connection. Absolutely imperative. Without it all you can claim is maybe or allegedly owned by such and such.

I once owned a dragon imperial jadeite jade men's saddle style ring that was reportedly owned by the last Emporer PuYi. However i couldn't establish a positive link so in the end it was sold as is.....in hindsight I wish I still owned it... sold many years ago during the 80's.

The more important the more desirable provenance is with prices and issue's of period etc.

Of course the mediocre stuff like lower end export doesn't really require too much provenance but its always good to have as it can increase the prices asked. Especially if owned by someone famous.

😂... your unlikely to find a genuine Chenhue chicken cup at a flea market... but anything is possible.

With regard to your pendant is it fully polished inside the carved sections or just the top layer?

Mark 

@imperialfinegems Do you have any photos of the ring that you sold? It sounds beautiful.

To answer your question about polishing- it appears to be polished on the sides of the intricate carvings and even deep into pendant where the carving has a relief depth of about 6-8mm.

I also love how the carver has utilised the different tones of the natural stone and isolated them to particular areas of the carving, for example the bat and the leaves on the bottom of the pendant have a slightly different tone to the rest:

No sorry I don't have any pictures of the ring.

Mark 

For those who may be interested here are a collection of close up photos of the pendant:

@tony-brams My observation is that provenance is more important for the types of things that are trickier to authenticate and date accurately. Jade certainly would be in that category. As would certain paintings. The architectural pieces like stone Buddha heads need it to prove it wasn't looted in recent decades due to international laws and etiquette. Most ceramics can still be accurately assessed without relying on provenance based on their physical traits which can usually be used to positively identify what they are when assessed by people with adequate knowledge. With that said, the fakes can be very convincing, especially by just photos, so without in person handling then provenance can be very useful to assure distant bidders of authenticity.

Posted by: @imperialfinegems

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😂... your unlikely to find a genuine Chenhue chicken cup at a flea market... but anything is possible.

True you're unlikely to find a genuine chicken cup, but I've found some pretty amazing imperial related antiques at flea markets, including:

- A Napoleon lll imperial french glass cruet jug engraved with the imperial N cypher and crown, used as part of the imperial glass table service of the emperor himself, now part of a museum collection in Paris.
- An 18ct gold and natural pearl Queen Alexandra Essex crystal stick pin featuring her royal cypher and inside its original Garrard & Co box. I've kept this for my own collection as I'm British.

Both of these were sold to me as cheap glassware/costume jewellery.

So it's with these discoveries in mind that I continue to pursue research into the possible connection between my pink tourmaline pendant and the Empress Dowager Cixi.

The new photos only show modern tools were used to make this pendant. 

@tony-brams So many great antiques are lost and/or forgotten and later to be found at estate sales, flea markets, and antique stores being sold for a few dollars by dealers who don't have the knowledge to know what they have. I'm glad you have made some great finds already. It's such a fun pursuit to seek these things out.

As for your pendant, these carvings aren't a strong point for me, and it is a hard surface to capture well in photos, but the last series of pictures shows areas up close that seem very nicely carved and well polished which are qualities I'd expect to see in high level workmanship. 

@johnshoe Thanks for taking a look at the closeups, and you're right pink tourmaline is incredibly difficult to photograph- the internal inclusions give the impression of a rough surface but all parts of this pendants are highly polished. The inclusions also obscure the detail in the carved elements, such as the bat's tail and the round gourds.

So what I've discovered so far is that this piece likely dates to the late Qing period, was probably made in an imperial workshop, and that the empress Cixi did in fact place a red tourmaline gourd and bat pendant in the 'treasure well' of her mausoleum.

This has been a fun process so far.

@tony-brams Maybe if genuine, it was looted from the lesser jewelry that Cixi didn't take with her in the evacuation to the North during the looting and destruction of the Summer Palace, of course at that point, she was merely a concubine. One rock is generally as old as another, but any attribution to provenance in the absence of records, will remain speculation. Fun to dream. Pink tourmaline is my favorite stone, I have a natural one from Brazil (minus the highly visible inclusions) that my husband gifted me set in gold by a local jeweler, generally the fewer inclusions the better. Cixi did not get her jewelry as a Christmas present, but part of the speculation could be a "Boxing" day looting gift, (sorry, could not resist). Good luck.

@sharonp Hi Sharon- Empress Cixi was certainly an interesting character with an interesting history, and as you say she was also recorded stashing jewellery and treasures before fleeing Beijing during the boxer rebellion.

Interestingly it has been recorded that many items stolen during the raid of her mausoleum were subsequently sold to businesses and individuals in Hong Kong, and some eventually made their way to the West as time went by.

For example in 2008 one of Empress Cixi’s jadeite hairpins came up for auction at Christie’s auction house in Hong Kong, and sold for 3.1 million HKD.

A crystal ball that had allegedly been owned by Cixi has made its way to Philadelphia, USA, and one of Cixi’s imperial jade seals was auctioned at Sotheby’s in Hong Kong selling for 2.66 million HKD.

At the time of Cixi’s death Hong Kong was a British colony, so it’s not far fetched to speculate that some of Cixi’s mausoleum treasures have made their way to Britain over the course of the 20th century.

How can it be late Qing if a rotary tools was used. I don’t believe stories make an piece authentic. John I have to disagree with the carving qualities there is nothing masterful with manufactured pieces. This was carved by a amateur and no other piece from the Qing dynasty matched this carving style look at the bats face there are nothing by V cuts the leaf veins are parallel hand carving always makes wiggles tools cut straight. There are ledges on the cut lines only modern tools leave ledges. Never seen leaves with sharp edges always rounded. The stems are always raised and rounded not created by carving a boarder. 

I don’t want you to think I’m beating up on this pendant. I just don’t see imperial quality and the excessive v shapes are concerning. Here is a Qing pendant sold by Christie’s and most likely Imperial workshop. Compare the two. Many things are in question but for me the rendering is enough.