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It’s that tunnel vision again you are taking one thing from many pieces and creating your own narrative. Plus the rendering is just different. Let’s compare closer with know Qing examples
@lotusblack My pendant has already been attributed to the late Qing period by Alexander Zacke who saw the piece online, and an Asian Art specialist at Chiswick Auctions in London who saw this piece in person last week also attributed it to the 19th century.
You keep saying I'm 'creating my own narrative' when industry experts are telling me it dates to the 19th century.
Are you saying you know something that these experts in their field don't?
Hi Tony,
If you don't mind me chiming in here, it looks like you'll have to agree to disagree on this, as you suggested earlier.
Brian brings a lot of valuable experience and shares a lot of interesting items on this site. If you don't agree with his opinion, that's OK.
Respectfully,
Steve
I feel a bit of tension cooking up here 🤔
I want to remind everybody that dating antiques is not necessarily an exact science. So if you ask 3 dealers you end up with 5 dates for an object, depending on experience, knowledge, motivation etc... If @lotusblack says he doesn't agree with dating it to Qing Dynasty, that is totally cool. if @tony-brams believes he is right and feels supported by what he has been told about the dating, that is totally cool too. Just don't butt heads over something that is not an exact science 😉 especially in the field of carved stones!
with Best Regards...
Carsten
@steve Thanks Steve, and I agree this current back and forth is not constructive for anyone.
When I created this thread all I wanted was to discuss the possible attribution of this pendant to possible imperial workshops in the late Qing period (the cixi connection was only mentioned as an interesting curiosity), but I’ve spent the whole time explaining simple details like the bat not being an elephant and ‘razor wire’ carved lines that don’t even exist.
I regret creating this thread because I haven’t learnt anything by doing so, and it’s been a very disappointing and counterproductive discussion.
@tony-brams I'm sorry you regret it. I am glad you chose to post it. It's been educational. Sometimes disagreements happen and they aren't always pleasant. It's okay. Hopefully you won't let this experience diminish your willingness to share and engage. It's all a learning process. Cheers!
I think this is pleasant compared to some other threads. Lol I’m not butting heads and like I said I hope it’s the real deal. Tony I have been on the receiving side more times than can be counted. I have had item by experts tell me they were not real and sold in major auctions. Research and strong debates have proven authenticity several times. No matter how the discussion goes I have never thought any thread was a waste of time. Everything is important this forum doesn’t prove authenticity it only help you learn things to put you in a better competitive advantage. And trust me I don’t think I’m right about everything or anything it’s simply and opinion. I use to have heated discussions with Giovanni but after awhile I realized we were just different but had the same passion. I hope he is well but the last time I talked to him he was battling illness. Debate is good and healthy I’m not here to offend anyone just old and stubborn.
@lotusblack You're old? For some reason I picture you as a 30 something treasure hunting mountain man artist type....
@lotusblack I'm hoping it will do well. It's got potential, but paintings are a bit mysterious.
I certainly wouldn't rely on Alexander Zacke or Chiswick auctions opinion's.
Chiswick have NO in-house jade or stone experts.
Zacke auctions have a reputation of selling genuine items mixed with fakes being sold as genuine. I know Suzanne and Luke. I have sold numerous items to them directly. I would definitely offer it to him for sale, if he really thinks it's possibly imperial carved. But I doubt it very much he will buy it.
You wrote earlier that you didn't want to show it to Peter because you thought he wasn't qualified to provide appraisal on tourmaline. BUT you have presented two opinions from two groups that certainly have little standing.
Why don't you show it to more reputable dealers such as Woolley & Wallis, Ben Jannsens Sotheby's or Christies in person. NO dealer or auction house (without ulterior motives) will do an appraisal on such limited or bad pictures you have posted here and on the other asian art forum!
Whether it's Qing or much later is debatable. But that stated the overall quality is not good Imo. Its average at best.The bat like figure is poorly carved and from a certain angle doesn't even resemble one. You will NEVER see those sharp awkward edges carved like that on a genuine Qing example carved bat in tourmaline or any hard stone. They are for the most part beautifully carved.
Tony please compare carefully (without prejudice) the bat and the hideous way it's carved and then compare to a genuine 19th Century one's from Sotheby's or Christine's. Not necessary to look for tourmaline but any similar carved hard-stone will suffice.
If the bat is poorly carved then the whole pendant is poor. Those razor like lines as referred to are often seen on tourmaline.
Imperial carved pendants are carved with expert hands life like precision....not a zombie bat!
Did you hear back from Sotheby's? I seem to recall you sending them pictures.
I know this post is a bit harsh but I believe you have been deluded by the two so-called expert's you asked for opinions. And hence on a mission to try to prove their opinions correct.
The one person I do know who would definitely know is no longer with us unfortunately.
My opinion is its Republic period at best
Good luck!
Mark
@imperialfinegems I'm sorry Mark but your aesthetic opinion lost all credibility when you confused a bat for an elephant. I also don't appreciate your derisive language towards this piece when you describe it as a 'hideous' 'zombie bat'. Didn't you mean to say a hideous zombie elephant?
Chiswick Auctions and Galerie Zacke are two very well respected auction houses with specialists in all aspects of Chinese Art and Antiquities, and your attempted hatchet job on both only reflects poorly on yourself.
There seems to be a toxic mix of egos in this forum that make knee jerk assessments based on faulty premises who then double down when their premises are verifiably refuted rather than admit that they had been mistaken. This stubbornness reflects an unhealthy immaturity in my opinion.
I won't be posting here again in the future.
I am sorry you feel this way.
Why don't you take your treasures to the listed suggestions for appraisal?
BTW show me please where or who at chiswick is a specialist in jade's? I looked at their website and found none! That obviously doesn't mean they don't know just not their specialist area.
Kindly don't put words into my mouth. I simply suggested to you that there are far better options for appraisal rather than these two. If the others I suggested all believe your pendant is either 19th or imperial then I freely admit that my thoughts were wrong.
But until you provide us with said appraisals my view stands
Tony you obviously know very little about stone carvings especially Qing or other. The whole piece is nice and at first glance one would think 19th Century...however the bat is badly carved therefore its unlikely to be earlier.
On ebay jgardltd also has a tourmaline carved pendant that is attracting a lot of interest.
Mark
Ok I have been very respectful but your second post to me was it’s ok to admit your wrong because I simply had an opinion your cut lines are like razor wire. I have proven every flaw I stated. I backed every comment with data. There is no ego simply an assessment. Just so you know I have a shop in an antique mall many of my dealer friends own jewelry counters I see carved stone from China weekly it’s all new and showed the same characters as yours it’s just the facts. No one here is trying to ego trip you kinda came at it like this is what it is and that is that. But I’m sorry it’s not that simple when you post something as Imperial you put it at a bar that should be disputed Imperial means the holy grail if everyone started using imperial without merit everything would be imperial. Now Mark is the one coolest cats on this site and has always been straight up I’m sorry the bat was carved so bad it did look off I saw an elephant in the one photo kinda happens when the lines are all choppy. It ok if you call me the forum asshole my wife calls me an asshole daily so there must be some truth to it. I personally don’t want you to leave because we all are here to work things out. With fakes and scams we need each other it’s like a marriage there will be good days and bad days it’s how you move forward that makes the difference.
@tony-brams Taking things like this so personally is a recipe for misery so I would recommend practicing letting go of the need to be right. At any rate I like your pendant but I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable about carvings as Mark and Brian, who have invested way more time in learning about them and have accumulated a lot of knowledge. Personally I would trust their assessment on this if it was mine. With that said, there could be other experienced collectors who would differ in opinion, so if you can get it in a reputable auction you never know what might happen. And that's probably the best way to find out the answers you seek- just let the market decide. Best of luck to you. John
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