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@lotusblack Thanks Brian, I appreciate your input, and it seems we will have to agree to disagree on this point.
This is interesting for me as I know so little about stones, I often even find it hard to see what the carved item is supposed to depict.
My question on the origin of this is would imperial carvers have persisted fashioning a pendant for an empress if the inclusions were going to leave it with the appearance of having been roughly carved? I would have thought it may either have been finished and sold off as as a lesser quality piece, or simply discarded as soon as the effect was clear.
@julia Hi Julia, Here's a pink tourmaline snuff bottle carved from pink tourmaline and was sold as 'probably imperial' by Bonhams.
Here's another carved tourmaline snuff bottle attributed as imperial by Christie's:
These pieces are roughly the same size as my pendant.
I suspect Cixi was a lover of the type of pink tourmaline shown here, as opposed to dark pink tourmaline or red. We may view this type of material as 'lesser' but I think that would be applying a modern interpretation of 'quality' onto the personal preference of an Empress Dowager whose life fell mostly in the 19th century.
I think you may have misunderstood me, I wasn't commenting on the quality of tourmaline per se, but of the specific piece that your pendant is formed from.
Maybe I have misunderstood, I genuinely know nothing here, and all tourmaline has inclusions so carving into them can't be avoided?
"Probably," does not mean it is and "Imperial" does not mean it belonged to Cixi, the family was large, the common outcome of multiple wives and concubines. Plus, the practice of giving diplomatic and personal gifts was a common practice. The pendant will have to stand on its artistic merit or you will need to find a "sale" history on the item. If it went with no history to a sale, then that amounts to a good dining out yarn to spin at table preferably after a generous cocktail hour, probably.
@sharonp Thanks Sharon.
I’m currently trying to locate a text called: Yu Shanpu, 1985, 'Cixi Lingmu' in: Yu Bingkun, p268
Within it is a description of the items placed into Cixi’s mausoleum and takes its reference from the original Palace archives, including the record of a ‘red tourmaline gourd and bat pendant’.
Any help would be appreciated so that this can become more than a ‘dining out yarn’.
@tony-brams maybe submit to Peter for assessment and also ask him if he has a copy of the text you're seeking.
@johnshoe I have a lot of respect for Peter, and I've gone to him before for questions regarding Chinese porcelain, but I don't believe his specialty lies in Chinese gemstones. I suspect I need to locate an expert that specialises in Chinese gemstone snuff bottles of the 18th and 19th century.
@lotusblack Hi Brian, I want to bring this back up because you didn’t mention in your comment that the dark red pendant you shared is made from amber.
Amber has a mohs hardness of 2-2.5, whereas tourmaline is actually harder than nephrite and jadeite, with a hardness of 7-7.5.
Bear in mind that you can’t cut jadeite or nephrite with a steel blade, and tourmaline is even harder than that.
I could carve into a piece of amber using a plastic credit card.
I’m really not interested in debating this further. I’m of my opinion you have buyers tunnel vision nothing I can say will change that. The fact that your pendant is likely modern and still probably valuable will just not be good enough for you. I refuse to buy into this fantasy that it’s imperial and belong to Cixi. This week I was in an auction and involved in bidding on a pendant everyone agreed was Qing. It was exactly how a hand worked pendant should look and feel. It was not Imperial or even considered but the carving and polishing was superior to your piece. I sent you and imperial carved pendant and now you are trying once again to sell a fantasy narrative that a plastic credit card could have carved that imperial pendant. I live in the United States and have become accustomed to false narratives being pushed instead of productive debates. Once again your pendant to me is just to sharp the outlines are etched and not carved the areas that should be raised relief are just etched with boarders hand carved lines and boarders are to straight and consistent the polishing is high speed buffed and rushed it look manufactured and sloppy the bats face is all V cuts. It simply has no flow. I could be wrong as everyone could be but the comparisons I have seen are just not there for me in this pendant at the end of the day I would probably try to prove it’s hand carved before the the story that someone broke into Cixi’s burial chamber and you just happen to find it and that’s the reality. Nothing personal but I hear stories like this every other day at estates 99 percent are just stories. Now everyone also experts will give you an opinion but at the end of the day it really comes down to if you like it or not. The market will decide its valve not stories.
I sent you and imperial carved pendant and now you are trying once again to sell a fantasy narrative that a plastic credit card could have carved that imperial pendant. I live in the United States and have become accustomed to false narratives being pushed instead of productive debates.
The amber pendant you shared was not attributed as imperial, unless I'm mistaken?
In other news I've found this lovely pink tourmaline snuff bottle dated to the late Qing period with very similarly shaped carved leaves in high relief as found on my pendant:
So far I've only seen these shaped leaves on tourmaline carvings, perhaps a consequence of the characteristics of the stone? Or possibly just the stylistic approach of a single workshop working at the time?
@tony-brams apples and oranges the leaves are rounded and polished no boards on raised reliefs the polishing is consistent with the period not high speed buffing the cut turns are crisp and fluid not choppy and marked. It’s that tunnel vision again you are taking one thing from many pieces and creating your own narrative. Plus the rendering is just different. Let’s compare closer with know Qing examples.
Hum what picture seems out of place that bat carving is just amateur at best I don’t see flawed areas on the other examples look at your leave it’s so sharp no polishing or rounding was considered where is the polishing abrasion that is left on period pieces it on the other two examples. You see any V cuts on the other two examples like the bats head.
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