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Yes, I'll probably start a new topic on my jar later. And also follow up on this thread, since it's an interesting topic. Thanks!
+
Hi Corey
So what happened?
Did you buy it,
Thanks.
Hello and thank you for the interest!
Yes, I bought the vase that now stands in my home where I often sit and admire it in the night. I have four pieces of copper reds and cobalt blues that are all qualified candidates for being authentic Xuande period treasures with this jar probably being the most promising one.
When researching it I learned that the entirely flat base (without any footring) is unusual, but found at least one example of a blue and white Xuande mark and period piece, that also has an entirely flat base from I. M. Chait:
http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2016/03/01/33448986.html
And while I didn't find any examples of Xuande period bowls, vases or jars with the swirled interior when researcing online, I found examples from the Yuan dynasty at the Koh Antique site plus examples from the late Ming (Wanli/Jiajing period) at this site, and thought to myself that then they were probably also making this in the middle Ming period.
Interstingly there was a sale at Christie's right after my purchase, of a Xuande style dragon-meiping, dated to the 18th century that sold for no less than USD 732,500 against a USD 150,000 - USD 200,000 estimate. I belive the Xuande period meiping referred to in the lot-essay is this on that is also at Henan Museum:
It's definitely noteworthy that these antique copies are now dramatically increasing in value.
There is by the way also a copper red and coabalt blue dragon-meiping similar to the one posted by Charles at Henan Museum:
Seems I forgot to add the link to the 18th century "Xuande style dragon-meiping" that sold at Christie's. Here it is:
https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-rare-large-ming-style-blue-and-white-6129537-details.aspx
The shipping was almost as expensive as the Jar 🙂
So you have an early Ming jar with the Xuande Mark. When they produced these jars during the ming period, why did they use the Xuande mark. Was it out of respect or were they actually making copies to pass off as Xuande.
The Xuande Mark on your jar is slightly different to the ice box Xuande mark from the Chait Sale in several respects. Does that mean that your jar is an inferior piece to the ice box as i would think the Chait sale Xuande mark has greater care and detail. I would knock $200,000 off just for that 🙂
Well, Congratulations on getting this Jar, apart form the postage it was an excellent purchase. You certainly have something of great interest.
In my objective the jar I have is likely an authentic Xuande mark AND period dragon jar. Blue and white ware with apocryphal Xuande mark was made in the late Ming dynasty (Wanli/Jiajing period), but there are no indications that my jar is such a thing. If it was a Qing dynasty apocryphal marked copy the heaping and piling would have been imitated with so-called 'dot-decoration', which is also slightly seen on the 18th century copy from Christie's.
The I. M. Chait ice chest is magnificent but not necessarily superior in terms of rarity and refinement of the decoration or in terms of value for that sake.
The seller agreed in shipping the jar with SAL sea mail for about half the price of EMS air mail, but chose to send it with EMS anyway. He had listed it before for about twice the price I paid, but failed to sell it for that amount. It was only because I came across the similar example at Henan Museum that it caught my interest and took the time to research it further when he relisted it.
I have bougth a handfull of very interesting items from him, with four of them potentially being world class pieces, this jar inclusive. Unfortunately I haven't had any of them authenticiated yet.
Corey,
Does that mean you have an item potentially worth 100's of thousands of dollars or to be respectful to your objective, you have safeguarded an important treasure, which just might be worth close to a million. Time to get a fancy antique safe to go with the vase, 🙂
Yes, I would say the potential value of this jar is close to a million dollars. But that amount reflects the estimate of the sale price through Sotheby's or Christie's. In fact the pre-sale estiamate of such things can be as high as five million dollars, especially in their Hong Kong sales. The given estiamate in one of the regional but reputable auctions would probably be set much lower. For example a Xuande mark and period dragon bowl even with well-documented provenance was listed at Bainbridge with an estimate at only £ 20,000 (according to the article), but sold for a staggering £ 1,600,000.
It was later offered at Sotheby's with an estimate at $ 2,500,000 — $ 3,500,000, but unfortunately failed to sell.
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/chinese-works-of-art-n09317/lot.269.html
(Note that there is also a similar excavated bowl at Henan Museum)
It's possible there may also be some sort of traceable provenace for this jar, but it seems to me like an overwhelming task of detective work and a very difficult one since it's in Japan where the trade of antiques historically has been going on in much more closed circles. But most important is the fact that it has been both legally exported and imported.
Hi Corey,
the original pictures of your item are no longer visible as is so often the case with old Ebay sales. Maybe you can post the pictures again?
Birgit
Hi Corey,
the original pictures of your item are no longer visible as is so often the case with old Ebay sales. Maybe you can post the pictures again?
Hi all,
I got the same request.
I really would like to study the photos of the jar you have bought. I have checked the seller and all Chinese ceramics he's selling he is listing as 'vintage'. Made me wonder about your jar.
Can you please upload some picture for the educational purposes of course so we could study it?
Many thanks.
Feel free to browse the store:
www.malkaart.com
Inquiries:
[email protected]
Sorry, I didn't see the last two replies untill now. But after thinking it over, I don't know really if I think it's a good idea. I'm not sure if I really want the pictures to float around on the internet. And I'm just not in the mood for a new discussion. Hope this is OK. All I can say is that to me it looks like there has been very interesting items available from the dealer it was bought from. There is for example a large longquan dish in his listing now that looks convincing to my eye. But I will send pictures to an auction like Christie's and report their answer even though it will probably take quite a while.
I found the pictures from the sale. Million dollar vase sold for $600!?? ? ? Too good to be true!?
What gives you the right to post them? I actually wanted to offer sending the pics to Shinigami and Malka Art privately. The jar will go to authentication sooner or later. But now I won't share the result anymore because you just pissed me off. But like I said several times before: It's almost certainly genuinely old - antique or semi-antique, but doesn't look like a 19/20th century copy to me. Cheers.
It is on ebay. It is public. So why not post it?
I think it is a copy. No seller would sell a real one for $600.
In my experience, real antiques and cheap prices never appear together on the same sentence. Cheap prices and fakes do. The same logic that Richard Severson used to argue that his fake Ming vase was real (also, argued that no one knew, but him), and everyone was laughing at him and even posted a video of him with his fake collection.
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