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I will also add that I did bid quite a lot on those lamps in the initial auction, so I was fairly confident they were good.
I'm not gonna weigh in on the vases being fakes or not (because I'm not qualified to judge that), what worries me more, is the repeated claim that restoration is just hairlines, as RM has done on both of these vases. I find that pretty disturbing. It might be a honest mistake on their part, but then I'm not so sure they deserve much praise if they can't spot the different between a hairline and a major repair. No matter the outcome, it is certainly a lose-lose for them.
I don't know which "both" vases you mean. On the Kangxi vase with the couple on the foot rim, is clearly stated that there is a restoration, plus there are UV light pictures included. On the rouleau vase, also there is mentioned that there is retouching around the rim , plus UV pictures. And then we don't know if it is really the same vase and if so, if the first auction house made the correct judgment. Maybe the vase was not restored at all. The UV pictures included at RM do not show a restoration, just hairlines. I don't understand honestly why people here seem to be looking for "proof" that RM cannot be trusted. I live in Europe and know this auction house very well. It is one of the best in the region, close to the level of Christie's, Bonhams and alike. He has Chinese experts working for him, he never judges an item alone. I find it a shame honestly that one person who is judging from pictures makes such a harsh statement and does not correct it even when we have proof now that on at least 2 major items he is wrong. I can tell you he is completely wrong. Very concerning and a disgrace for the antique market. This is the problem with social media.
I don't know which "both" vases you mean. On the Kangxi vase with the couple on the foot rim, is clearly stated that there is a restoration, plus there are UV light pictures included. On the rouleau vase, also there is mentioned that there is retouching around the rim , plus UV pictures. And then we don't know if it is really the same vase and if so, if the first auction house made the correct judgment. Maybe the vase was not restored at all. The UV pictures included at RM do not show a restoration, just hairlines. I don't understand honestly why people here seem to be looking for "proof" that RM cannot be trusted. I live in Europe and know this auction house very well. It is one of the best in the region, close to the level of Christie's, Bonhams and alike. He has Chinese experts working for him, he never judges an item alone. I find it a shame honestly that one person who is judging from pictures makes such a harsh statement and does not correct it even when we have proof now that on at least 2 major items he is wrong. I can tell you he is completely wrong. Very concerning and a disgrace for the antique market. This is the problem with social media.
I'll help you. This is in reference to the original topic posted by "A Forest" (the two "kangxi" vases that were delamped), that you should perhaps reread. 🙂 The evidence that the vase RM is selling now, and the one RM sold in December 2021 are from the lot sold at Cheffins in April 2021, is pretty convincing. And both of those vases where damaged and repaired (the one RM has listed now, was damaged badly!). So yeah, my problem is not the dating of those two vases, the problem is an auction house misrepresenting the condition and restoration history of the items.
And since you mention that you looked at the UV pictures, you can't possible have missed that there was a piece missing, that had been restored, probably with milliput or similar stuff used in restoration work. That is a little more than just a couple of hairlines. Either they have some shady practices when it comes to conditions reports, or they just aren't qualified to make conditions reports in the first place (because this is stuff you shouldn't miss). No matter which auction house it is, that should be a source for concern, especially if you are considering making a purchase.
So, yeah, you missed the point if you thought I was making a judgement call on authenticity, because I wasn't.
~ Decorative Arts, Antiques and Accessories, at Mollari's ~ www.mollaris.com
@staartmees if you feel this should be discussed at the level you are stating why don’t you email Peter directly and discuss the issue. I feel you are lumping us into this disagreement but yes I will tell you from my mouth to your ears every thing is fake until it’s not. Just a side step I once knew a gentleman that was a master forger in Aspen he had a studio and could produce any copy painting porcelains it didn’t matter. He made a very good living painting copies for millionaires and billionaires some so they could put the original into locked storage some because the buyers didn’t want to pay millions. But I was in his studio on many occasions and I could not tell the difference ever line by line. As for an auction house reputation how does an opinion destroy an auction house’s credibility most buyers paying the cost of these items already know the item is either good or not and I’m sorry but auction houses are making a lot of money so I’m sure their feelings are not hurt every case is different hits and misses.
I don't know which "both" vases you mean. On the Kangxi vase with the couple on the foot rim, is clearly stated that there is a restoration, plus there are UV light pictures included. On the rouleau vase, also there is mentioned that there is retouching around the rim , plus UV pictures. And then we don't know if it is really the same vase and if so, if the first auction house made the correct judgment. Maybe the vase was not restored at all. The UV pictures included at RM do not show a restoration, just hairlines. I don't understand honestly why people here seem to be looking for "proof" that RM cannot be trusted. I live in Europe and know this auction house very well. It is one of the best in the region, close to the level of Christie's, Bonhams and alike. He has Chinese experts working for him, he never judges an item alone. I find it a shame honestly that one person who is judging from pictures makes such a harsh statement and does not correct it even when we have proof now that on at least 2 major items he is wrong. I can tell you he is completely wrong. Very concerning and a disgrace for the antique market. This is the problem with social media.
I'll help you. This is in reference to the original topic posted by "A Forest" (the two "kangxi" vases that were delamped), that you should perhaps reread. 🙂 The evidence that the vase RM is selling now, and the one RM sold in December 2021 are from the lot sold at Cheffins in April 2021, is pretty convincing. And both of those vases where damaged and repaired (the one RM has listed now, was damaged badly!). So yeah, my problem is not the dating of those two vases, the problem is an auction house misrepresenting the condition and restoration history of the items.
And since you mention that you looked at the UV pictures, you can't possible have missed that there was a piece missing, that had been restored, probably with milliput or similar stuff used in restoration work. That is a little more than just a couple of hairlines. Either they have some shady practices when it comes to conditions reports, or they just aren't qualified to make conditions reports in the first place (because this is stuff you shouldn't miss). No matter which auction house it is, that should be a source for concern, especially if you are considering making a purchase.
So, yeah, you missed the point if you thought I was making a judgement call on authenticity, because I wasn't.
You're wrong. They don't have shady practices and they certainly have the expertise. If you can, go and visit them and you will see for yourself. Next to that, an auction house with this reputation does not benefit from shady practices as they will loose their reputation. I do not see a piece missing. Which picture is that ? ( number x ?)
~ Decorative Arts, Antiques and Accessories, at Mollari's ~ www.mollaris.com
I honestly don't believe anyone is looking for proof that RM can't be trusted. I for one have just spent an hour or so doing exactly the opposite and I believe that generally speaking Rob Michiels has put together another excellent auction.
The thing is, we can all get things wrong. It doesn't necessarily mean it is deliberate or calculating . Maybe Rob just needs to be asked about those 2 vases and the damage?
@staartmees if you feel this should be discussed at the level you are stating why don’t you email Peter directly and discuss the issue. I feel you are lumping us into this disagreement but yes I will tell you from my mouth to your ears every thing is fake until it’s not. Just a side step I once knew a gentleman that was a master forger in Aspen he had a studio and could produce any copy painting porcelains it didn’t matter. He made a very good living painting copies for millionaires and billionaires some so they could put the original into locked storage some because the buyers didn’t want to pay millions. But I was in his studio on many occasions and I could not tell the difference ever line by line. As for an auction house reputation how does an opinion destroy an auction house’s credibility most buyers paying the cost of these items already know the item is either good or not and I’m sorry but auction houses are making a lot of money so I’m sure their feelings are not hurt every case is different hits and misses.
Many people did, but he does not answer the phone nor does he respond to emails. You know, I am a follower of Peter for years. I always respected his opinion, even when I knew he was wrong sometimes. It is not an easy profession. In this case, he made such obvious mistakes and such heavy allegations, from an auction house I know as being one of the most reliable auction houses in Europe, that I am shocked. I am also shocked to see that in the topic about the vase with the couple at the foot rim, he changes his comments, from : it was not done, then : the vases from Christie's and Nagel were also fakes ( yeah right) , into yes it was done but it was rare, when he was confronted with similar vases on display at the British museum. In the end, also this vase was proven to be authentic because somebody found the history of the vase, exactly like the rouleau vase of this topic. What about that ? In his video he states they are both clearly fakes and they are not ? How can you trust him now in the future ? I for sure won't. What is behind this ? Competition or what ? I don't know, but I do know it stinks and he is damaging a reputable auction house.
As much as you want to defend Peter and question auction houses because they earn money though these auctions, don't forget that for Peter it is exactly the same. He is earning money through authentication with pictures only of items from collectors, he is earning money from people looking at his video's and he is earning money selling antiques. It is hard to go back on his opinion because that would mean that actually he proves to be unable to give correct judgements looking at pictures alone . I am going to leave it now, but I can tell you I will never trust Peter to authenticate anything of importance for me after witnessing what he is doing here. he is totally off, and probably it is not the first time. It is only because I know this auction house that I know he is wrong, before he commented on auctions houses I didn't know and I believed him. Now I realize I should not do that and really form my own opinion.
Fortunately we still have many authentic items in Europe, I believe it is the region with the least fakes ( some countries excluded).
Do what you want with my comment. I know this auction house and I have seen most of the objects when I was there 2 months ago.
I actually do not know Peter at all and thinking about it, I have never seen anything of his collection except for the Wanli plate hanging on his wall when he makes his video.
So, based on what do I actually know if Peter really has the knowledge ? I am doubting that now, because especially the Kangxi vase with the couple on the foot rim was so obvious an authentic Kangxi vase, even only from pictures you could see that from miles away.
@staartmees the first thing I did after watching that video was ask RM for a shipping quote on one of the Arita pieces.
You're turning me off to RM more than Peter did. It's literally every dealer and auction house on Earth that has sold a fake before.
@staartmees the first thing I did after watching that video was ask RM for a shipping quote on one of the Arita pieces.
You're turning me off to RM more than Peter did. It's literally every dealer and auction house on Earth that has sold a fake before.
You are free to never buy with them. Do as you please. I will never listen to Peter again. I am totally turned off. Besides that, you clearly didn't;t get my point.
“Fortunately we still have many authentic items in Europe, I believe it is the region with the least fakes ( some countries excluded).”
I think this is the most ridiculous thing I heard in this discussion. Lol I’m starting to gather that this might be a regional complaint.
@staartmees The point is in buying the object rather than the salesmanship. Reputations happen.
“Fortunately we still have many authentic items in Europe, I believe it is the region with the least fakes ( some countries excluded).”
I think this is the most ridiculous thing I heard in this discussion. Lol I’m starting to gather that this might be a regional complaint.
Tap yourself on the shoulder. You have just given the most valuable contribution to this discussion ! You can be proud of yourself.
@iluvatar I’m curious but where is the drilled hole from being lamped?
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