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@elm that is very interesting as the original owners knew to not drill the pieces.
@staartmees Sounds personal, did someone score a goal?
nothing personal about it unless dishonesty is part of your definition of a goal. Then it is a yes. This is simply dishonest and and I cannot stand it.
@staartmees How many times is "in my opinion necessary"? Yellow card.
Indeed, I noticed that too. He said it a lot of times.
I for one am happy to be part of a forum with such passionate and experienced collectors, regardless of disagreement on occasion. Nobody is perfect. Even experts are allowed to publicly disagree. And it is not surprising that if an expert makes an occasional mistake they might not necessarily want to draw too much attention to that. But sometimes it can be important to issue a retraction or an apology if we were wrong about something. My sense is RM and Peter mean well and are trying to do their best in their respective ways. And so are all of us. Hopefully all sides will reflect on things, and that some clarity will occur. Regardless, I hope that people's passions will not devolve into disrespect or meanness here in this forum, because that just causes people to close their minds and take sides, which is a killer for the learning process. John
@rahawkins can I ask what Arita piece you are interested in I’m trying to learn more about the Arita bowl Peter mentioned.
What A THREAD here. I did read trough all posts. Very interesting.
Everyone knows, that to identify something really special or rare or something really complicated, just watching at the pictures online, sometimes it's impossible to get this right.
If "you" take funds for the service, I am assuming identification should be right as much as possible, without misleading possibilities - otherwise lots of funds can be lost when object misjudged for any reason. Probably, correct way would be to say "I am not confident" on this or that, and shouldn't be stated as firm 100% fact that's fake or real - I guess it depends on a person which was looking at "your" object.
On other had - every expert or auction house, they are offering info just like personal opinion on objects which lined up for sale & valuation provided low & high estimates: "you have" 2 options you either go with it or no, it's entirely up to you what you want to do if you want to purchase something or to sell something somewhere.
I don't believe that damage to any auction house reputation is done here, if someone stating personal opinion on the object different from anyone else... It's more like a damage to "that person's reputation & service reputation".
"You" have to line up your priorities for yourself, who you want to listen to & in who you want to trust, simple is that.
Recently I've seen rare Shunzhi brush pot or bitong if you wish, not a master piece sold at random auction house. Brush pot was sold as 20c & was auctioned for $200..That's a bad beat when such item is easily 4 figures zone, to theirs customers pocket. Sorry, can't remember auction house, as this was some sort provincial auction house within U.S. accidentally when looking for something online...
I remember a very long time ago, when there was no internet, and life was simple as it can be: let's say if you want to fix a TV which did broke down, you have to take a broken TV to the person which can fix your broken TV...And that person will let you know, how much repair will cost you. A person can say anything what person like to say, still you don't understand what's needs to be replaced, how large repair job is - so you just have to trust a person. Or no.
There is a useful life hack rule, which can be used in many different life areas - if you want to understand pretty much "how much it will cost you to fix broken TV in real" you have to take your broken TV to a 3 different people and to get 3 different opinions on a repair cost - just to get an idea, pretty much "what's going on". This will increase your chances to get at least an idea.
Resume: my point - you don't have to take someone's personal opinion as a fact if you don't like it. There are many way's how to play this after>>if you don't like a personal opinion.
If someone, wan to believe in someone all the way up to 100% as for opinion provided, this is theirs choice.
@lucky I remember a video by Nicolas Chow in which he said the majors had sold fakes, it is several years old now. It is not a new problem. I agree with you that it all comes down to an opinion you feel most comfortable with taking and hopefully avoiding being taken. As you say, the internet is a blessing and a curse, the old days when a knowledgable postal worker could build a fine collection are probably over, as market principles make it virtually impossible.
Wow! I've tried reading every post in this thread... couldn't do it. Thank you, ADD. I think I get the gist of the discussion.
The fee (what is it? $15?) that Peter charges..... is that for authentication? I don't think so. If you think so....you shouldn't.
What is it you're paying for? Ah! Good question! Your paying for his opinion based upon photos and his past experience. That's it. Nothing to see here, folks. Completely legit, and nobody should have a bone to pick over a mistake, because there is no expressed or implied guarantee that Peter's opinion is correct.
The vases...
These things were said by others, but I'll do my best to summarize:
Past high sales results (or any sales result for that matter) do not guarantee authenticity.
Selling damaged/repaired damaged seems to be the newest trend to help sell items with questionable provenance as 'authentic'. Who would repair a reproduction vase, right? Wrong! It's a frequently used smoke tactic to cover the tracks of a fake....judge the piece for it's artistic merits and historical accuracy.
Finally thought - the fakes of Famille verte being made are FANTASTIC! Kicking myself that I did not take a photo.... but, here's the story.
Just got back from Atlanta.... a friend of mine sells modern Chinese porcelains at the show (he does not represent them as antiques). Once and a while he brings a genuine antique piece, and this sale, he had a fantastic looking famille verte vase that was lamped with a lucite base.
I was able to study the foot (lucite was completely transparant), the mark (Kangxi), and all of the brush work / enamels.
Compared to all of his other famille verte pieces (which were all fairly obvious fakes), this vase stood far and above in every catagory that we evaluate. I was convinced it was real, of very high quality, and was prepared to buy this lamped vase as a very fine late 19th c. piece.
Yet, speaking with my friend, he assured me the vase was brand new... he bought two vases, drilled them, but sadly broke one during the drilling process.
Conclusion....
There are famille verte fakes that will absolutely pass as late 19th c. revival (even when handled), and possibly some good enough to pass for Kangxi period.
This is the 2nd or 3rd famille verte piece that I've been blown away by....I have not had that experience with famille rose pieces thus far..perhaps the complexity of the designs and enamels are just too great a challenge for modern artists... or they're really great, and have been slipping into the auction world un-noticed.
I've seen video just now on RM fake lots... 🤭 That much I can say 🤭
@greeno107 take some pictures next time! We need to see what these things look like if they're that convincing.
@johnshoe Check out my post that I just put up on compromised auctions... the quailty is really quite fantastic, but I will say that the vase I held was a more typical baluster vase form... no caligraphy, so the fact that it was a more widely used form made it that much more convincing than the examples I cited in my post.
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Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
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A free Asian art discussion board and Asian art message board for dealers and collectors of art and antiques from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and the rest of Asia. Linked to all of the BidAmount Asian art reference areas, with videos from plcombs Asian Art and Bidamount on YouTube. Sign up also for the weekly BidAmount newsletter and catalogs of active eBay listing of Chinese porcelain, bronze, jades, robes, and paintings.
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