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Thanks for making it public again, I had medical appointments yesterday (the regular social life of the elderly), so I missed this discussion, much appreciated. Sharon
If you are right then other people also thought they were authentic as they have been sold for 19000 pounds at Cheffins, almost 3 years ago. Then also here Peter is wrong stating it is a fake. I am getting concerned now that Peter is not up to it anymore ?
@staartmees I wouldn't want to say for sure, but it can be difficult to determine fakes. The high quality that is currently being produced has people very cautious, even if the quality looks quite good. No ones opinion should be taken as gospel, people can only offer their opinion. Ultimately it is up to you decide for yourself how to judge a piece.
If you want to avoid fakes almost completely, Japanese antiques is a good option at least for the time being. (Though certain things like netsuke are copied of course)
@staartmees I will add that an item is not authentic just because it has sold for a substantial amount of money previously. Not as a comment on whether these vases are authentic or not.
I’m with Peter the brush work on the rocks is strange price doesn’t make an item authentic. Also excessive restoration can make an object look strange. But yes Peter can be off sometimes but so can any expert these days I have had many experts make mistakes even Sotheby’s
@staartmees That is a fair conclusion to make, though as you say in principle there is a possibility that they are not period (even if unlikely).
@staartmees That is a fair conclusion to make, though as you say in principle there is a possibility that they are not period (even if unlikely).
Well, there is a discussion elsewhere on the Kangxi vase with the couple on the foot rim making babies. He states in the video that that was not done during the Kangxi period and that the vase is clearly fake, that the foot rim was the biggest give away. someone commented that that is strange as these vases were also sold at Christies and Nagel and even Alain truong wrote an article about it. He then said that that was true but that it was believed later that they were fake. ( this is why the way not true as the vases were later resold by Christies as Kangxi again) the person then commented that that is really strange as there is also a pair on display at the British museum. He then first removed the comment about the christies and Nagel vases being fake and replied that he should not have said that they didn't do that during Kangxi, they were made but very very rare. The only authentic piece he knew was in the British museum. Yeah right, in your video you say they didn't do that and now you say that you knew there was a pair in the UK in one of the most important museums in the world? In the end, the vases history was found by someone else and it is authentic. So I am worried because I don't understand how Peter can make such mistakes....but he is damaging an auction house with an excellent reputation in a very bad way. I also think this example shows how risky it is to judge an item solely on pictures.
@staartmees Well whenever it was made, the artist obviously had not studied human anatomy, my reaction, "you have to be kidding," looked like a naughty drawing confiscated by teacher and mailed home to the parents, "your child is flunking both art and biology."
@staartmees Peter may have been wrong on some things, but I wouldn't assume that he was necessarily wrong on everything because of that. To determine something with absolute certainty is difficult at the best of times. For me it is still open debate, but that is the same with any piece really.
Whilst watching the video, I agreed with Peter and felt that those pieces he showed had been misidentified, but to be fair all of us watching the video are watching an image of an image which is not ideal. Also I have huge gaps in my knowledge, for example I didn't know that the "people making babies" mark on the base was found on other pieces from that period and judged acceptable.
In respect of the vase this thread discusses, like Brian, I felt the rocks were really odd. I hadn't seen anything like that before, but I have just found this:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/42279
That seems pretty close and could be said (assuming that one is genuine) to establish that this drawing style was used during the Kangxi period.
So on the basis of all the above, I will want to look more carefully at the other items Peter flagged up. We should always do our own research, anyway. I would like to just add that Peter did emphasize that this was just his opinion and I feel he was puzzled by the inclusion of these pieces rather than accusing Rob of anything as he genuinely holds him in high regard.
@staartmees Peter may have been wrong on some things, but I wouldn't assume that he was necessarily wrong on everything because of that. To determine something with absolute certainty is difficult at the best of times. For me it is still open debate, but that is the same with any piece really.
If you are not absolutely sure, you cannot make these allegations. It is very damaging to the auction house. And to me, if you fail on these items , certainly when you talk about he foot rim which is perfectly normal for Kangxi, I wonder in how far I can trust other judgments, especially for one for which I am paying ( his authentication service). Think about the money you can lose when he states your item in fake when it actually is a period piece.
I'm not gonna weigh in on the vases being fakes or not (because I'm not qualified to judge that), what worries me more, is the repeated claim that restoration is just hairlines, as RM has done on both of these vases. I find that pretty disturbing. It might be a honest mistake on their part, but then I'm not so sure they deserve much praise if they can't spot the different between a hairline and a major repair. No matter the outcome, it is certainly a lose-lose for them.
~ Decorative Arts, Antiques and Accessories, at Mollari's ~ www.mollaris.com
@staartmees With the Rouleau vases, there is nothing that 'shouts' to me that they are inauthentic but I will still remain open minded. With the other items I cannot judge them. I agree that people should be cautious about declaring anything authentic or inauthentic with 100 percent certainty. In regards to authentication services, the truth is that you cannot 100 percent rely upon any of them. It is the same with any other area of expertise. When consulting Peter I would have it in mind that I am paying for his opinion, the same as when consulting with anyone else.
It would be good to get further provenance on the Wucai garlic mouth vase if possible, as well as the other items. Though of course we are not entitled to those details it would be useful in the debate.
I would be surprised if Rob never makes a mistake, but that is the same for literally every auction. I think his intent is to source a lot of good porcelain to make good sales and he achieves that. The items come from lots of different sources, and he does seem to be looking for good genuine pieces. His industriousness is to be commended.
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