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Was this type of cloisonne bracelet known in the Ming Dynasty?
@ubecha I have also read the article on mixed enamels I have done a lot of research on the term pure pink. Much debated due to the techniques to mix pink in the Ming period it is one of the best ways to authenticate Ming cloisonné from modern.
@lotusblack When you want to use my fotos for comparison, please try not to "windowshop" the blurriest - even if Ubecha likes that.
To your convenience a better one; daylight, tried to minimize reflection there is no trace of pink in that dark red bat. The only other color you might have meant is that umbra off white i mentioned above.
To your 19th century vase; the red is a cherry red; too bright; the yellow more an orange the whole appearance of the surface is very glossy. Oxidation spots are there ( i never stated there are none on 19th century cloisonne ) but in relation to the size of the object not that much.
That from fotos without any universal color calibration on each of our systems, shot with shitty handy cameras makes me tired.
Ah yes; please don´t mix up oxidation spots with that pits, where gas bubbles came to the surface durin firing process.
Everyone can argue as much as they like about the colours, manufacturing technique, black spots etc, but if there were no cloisonné bracelets in the Ming dynasty, then this cannot be a Ming bracelet. The age, the colours etc can be faked, but you can't put a style back where it did not exist.
As you said earlier, Chris, albeit with a different viewpoint, where are the others? I have spent an enjoyable couple of hours researching Chinese jewellery. I found some beautiful items but nothing like this. I looked at Ming paintings to see if there was any evidence there: not much because of the habit of sleeves hiding hands, but I saw some bangles, unfortunately nothing that implied cloisonné.
It may be worth pursuing that further, pictoral evidence would be something positive. You need to establish the existence of these items in the period before arguing whether yours is genuine.
Mh, yes i see that - Brian stated he has some pieces of the 19th century in that exact same design, when i got him right; that pieces have to have their origin or call it role model back in time; when they existed in the 19th why not in the 18th and so on; like it usually is with chinese stuff; sudden fantasy inventions are somewhat unlikely.
But you are right; this here leads to nothing in the end.
Bye and thank you.
@julia At least bangles they wore that courtesans of your "green theory" ! 😆 😆 😆
This vase can be traced back to the Ming period? I’m interested in learning more about this theory.
@dante Jingtai marks cast or embedded in cloisonné instead of being inscribed directly on the vessels are usually dated to Qianlong or even later period. A recent example is a cloisonné alms bowl with the four-immortal decoration from last year’s Perry collection sale at Bonhams. According to the original receipt, the Perry family acquired it as a “Ming” bowl, but Bonhams listed it as a 19th century cloisonné for sale, which I think is completely appropriate. The alms bowl was also mentioned twice in Peter’s videos. Regarding the dish that you cited, which was sold by Christie’s in 2013, I think that it should be more appropriate to date it to 19th century as well. After all, the dragon is in mid-late Qing style instead of Ming. Best
@lotusblack I will let Chris help you. He can help you date it to Yuan or whatever dynasties if he feels like. Lol
I want to make it known that I personally am not here to beat up on anyones item Chris is probably unaware that some of us have seen many cloisonné or porcelain come on this forum that we believed to be authentic hands down to actually be less than a 100 years old. There was a recent post that some of thought was Ming it had all the bells and whistles but turned out to be 20th century Japanese. My problem is not with Chris’s bangle my problem is Chris in what I consider to be the issue with Asian art today. He went on the market and listed a piece as authentic Ming period with the notion that it was the only one in existence and commanded a heavy cost without any proof or providence whatsoever. These actions are what creates the forgery’s fakes and copies that hurt the art form. And it prays on the vulnerable less experienced collectors. We have all been down that road of being burned that’s why most of us are passionate about Asian art we’ve all been gut punched once. Now we all have our ways here and from time to time rub each other badly. But we all have one thing in common our passion so let’s learn debate and argue. But that curtesy ends when insults and disrespect take place.
Julia is correct. This has become repetitious, an impasse of personality with no legitimate end to be achieved. Let us not drive one another away. You are all welcome to your opinions.
@ubecha another rude and unproductive comment from you. This seems to be a pattern with you and it doesn't make this forum a better place. Your knowledge is being overshadowed by your unpleasantness. You should change your tone so whatever knowledge you might have doesn't get disregarded.
@johnshoe Lol you act like a CCP’s Internet cop now. Please feel free to judge my sense of humor and sarcasm. But I am afraid that you are just wasting your time. Best
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Bonhams are international auctioneers of fine Chinese and Japanese art. We specialise in rare Imperial and Export Chinese ceramics and works of art, as well as Japanese ceramics, fine and decorative works of art from the Neolithic Period to the 20th century. View on map