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@ubecha I realize you probably don't care what anyone thinks. Nor do I think you are here to help anyone else. But It's still worth letting you know how others feel about your negativity even if you don't care. Because this forum is about more than just you and your ego.
@johnshoe From now on, all messages from you will be ignored. I thought you were a dear friend but it turns out you wanna be a dear leader. LOL I am afraid that your Internet censorship won’t work here or anywhere else. Bye
I remind members to be cordial to each other. No personal mudslinging or attacks will be tolerated.
We are all here to learn and exchange ideas. We may not always agree with each from time to time. But this thread is getting out of hand.
If it continues I will delete the thread and all comments therein.
Thank you,
Mark (bidamount moderator)
So fun to see this topic (I started) pop up nearly a year later! Less fun to see the less-than-civil tone taken by a few. Thanks to Mark, Julia and others for keeping it on track.
The same colors alone are not enough to authenticate an item as of the period. The same cloison material is also not enough to authenticate an item as of the period.
As we know, authentication requires all elements of a piece be researched. All must match, or be plausibly close. Given this, it's often more efficient to look for comps of whatever seems most atypical of the piece. For me, with this, it is the bangle shape.
Perhaps this will be a more fruitful question for the group:
What is the earliest example of a Chinese cloisonne bangle you've seen?
(Not a jade bangle, and not a closionne vase/dish with the same colors, but specifically a cloisonne bangle from China.)
The oldest I've seen is from 1991. I bought it then in Beijing. What's the oldest Chinese cloisonne bangle you've seen?
As everyone knows, I have done a lot of cloisonné bangle searching. The "oldest" I saw was alleged to be 1890s and I think it was said to be Japanese. The next was said to be 1920s, I am not commenting on the authenticity of either, just answering. The others are all second half 20th c and later.
There are distinct styles to the modern ones that I have noticed, and to be fair, none of those really look like this. On the other hand some older bangles I saw appear to have been hinged, many were gold inlaid with stones, kingfisher feathers provided vibrant blue colours and I saw one fairly old piece that was enamelled. It is lovely, I will post it below. Woolley and Wallis seem to sell a lot of jewellery, it may be worth spending more time searching through the old catalogues. Micheal Backman sells chinese jewellery, too.
I will also post a link to a brief overview of Chinese jewellery, I am not sure of the accuracy as I know little, but cloisonné isn't mentioned. There is however a beautiful warring states "threaded" bangle, I would like that!
Here are links, interesting if not directly helpful. Sorry Craig, I seem to have gone beyond just giving a date. 😊
https://www.woolleyandwallis.co.uk/departments/asian-art/aa220513/view-lot/170/
https://www.chinafetching.com/chinese-jewelry
https://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/catalogue/antique-jewellery-asia/
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/2015-02/05/content_19488419.htm
This one in case of China; https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/47711
but like stated, i do not think it is the oldest cloisonne bangle made there.
The Mughal-Empire was quite fond of cloisonne bangles, executed in a stunning quality; Chinese Ming to Qing Empire were contemporary to the Mughals and connected by the silk-road; and they were fond of Mughal-Art; they copied the Mughal Jade but didn´t have the techniques to copy their cloisonne properly; so they might have done it their way. https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/!ut/p/z1/lZJPU4MwEMW_Sj1whGz4jzcGHbVORastJZcOYNpCSaAhivXTGzw5attpTsnM7nu_fRtE0AIRnr2X60yWDc9q9U6Ju4zD0MVWBOM4cq4gjKePzjR6uAFsozkiiNR8jVLKh2vBZSs3KN1mrOyWlGvQN2LbjZrVKBNSAwiMUUV7WtdU7DVwAwze0NcW5avS8LGHoQh0cDDoNphYz_wC66blUg_s3MbURMk3Exw4ISByHDk5NRM5Lp8MvCcIfjHc3XvK4sW5jeN5ZEY2ShWDd4jBnZjoedBIosnyaXY9VdU_Ij4jqvGpLNR-y2q3I6HaXMMl_ZBocdbqlEOZM6MvmAGGYzqArQDA90zP9t1BPuS55a8REXRFBRXGm1C_aiNl211qoCz63mhL5SxoJ42iYRr817VpOkX2pxi1jPkW02cLqJy2-lyxRCf5vr_4As5ccCk!/dz/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/
Just some thoughts.
Thank you @Julia! I look forward to reading those. I've realized from this discussion how very little I know of antique Chinese jewelry.
And thanks for the tip on Woolley and Wallis. I believe I have a few of their older catalogs back at home. I'll take a look when I return and let you all know if I find anything similar.
One member asked about the use of the color scheme based on chartreuse or lime green, think it was Mark.
That specific background color is known as the first "synthetical" one throughout history, in glazes or majolika enamels it dates back ( synthetical; made of lead and antimon ) to medieval or ancient times - it is a direct offspring of naples yellow; color outcome is just determined by length of firing or weighting of the elements.
I found the most chinese pieces of different types ( vessels, vases etc. ) in late ming to qianlong era ( dont want to argue about that; 120 years or the like are not worth a struggle )
French monks brewed or distilled a spirit in that color in the 16th century; in the 17th century it was discovered for paintings in the west - and the recipes for painting colors where invented. ( in the yellow to green spectrum mostly; it reached to pink by the way: depending on how it was burned, fired, dosed )
Paintings in the Mughal - world used that lime green too, to a great extend; might be way earlier.
@Brian - That specific lime-green enamel was indeed sensible to iron inclusions ; it turned black in a long time process.
Even the low manganese blue seems to fit the traditional east / "modern" west recipe pattern.
I have been staying out of this debate since this really isn't my area at all, but I did happen to come across this while looking for something else, and I thought at least here is an example of a lime-like green on an earlier to middle Qing piece that you might find interesting.
Overall I am enjoying this discussion since for me cloisonne is not something I actively seek out.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Yes, seems to be the same stuff - look at that non matching, shiny dark blue by the way; same obvious contrast. They experimented or combined their techniques with new ones.
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