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Edit: "Even the low manganese..." should be "even the high manganese... "; conclusion remains the same by the way.
Some detailed pictures of my "50 year old bangle" (< THAT really was stated by one sophisticated forum member; but that is for sure not my opinion, ) to sum it up. The blue is way more dark, deep/intense ( unmatched in relation to the other colors, it is hard to take a proper photo ) in reality, than other colors; the red is too. It should be a mixup of old recipes ( the traditional blue and the traditional red combined with fresh western enamels ); judged by the irregularities of the surface of specific colors, considering their composition - it is late Ming up to Qianlong;( more likely i have to admit it is Qianlong era; thats it.)
Did some warmer light filtering similar to that christies used with their champleve bowl. ( upper part, official christies in zoom mode is not altered - so the same for all )
Good for comparing structure; pitting; and wear too. ( take a magnifiyng glass; since there seems to be no zoom function )
Or right click, save target.
@dante You are beating a dead horse, no one is witholding information from you on the forum. I think this is a case of where the answers you seek will have to come from a specialized expert. I for one, truly have no idea on the age of your bracelet, if you find one of the majors willing to accept it into a sale, then they will assign a tentative date for it. Good luck in your research. Best of fortune, Sharon
Yes; perhaps better to close it.
Yes; i´ll do.
Okay; don´t want to be any forum member to be bored to tears; but while waiting for answer of some decent auction houses i want to share a little info, first a device for copying poems or the like by focussing it and weighting a more transparent paper above it, time and periode in my opinion. ( http://121.40.230.137/auction5_det.php?ccid=1250&id=197178&n=3529 ) < not that ring is an imitation; it was just used to copy text.
And then an interesting statement of one not identyfiable person quoting some probably good sources : http://m.lyktxs.com/news/22480.html ( use a translation plug in if your chinese is as good as mine...; works well in firefox )
I can't enlarge it very well, but I can see similarities. That doesn’t mean I am convinced, though. 😊
The second piece translates too badly, I can't follow it. It keeps saying it is called cloisonné because of the colours, whereas it is well-known that the term cloisonné comes from cloison. Something obviously went wrong in the translation.
Thanks Christian, interesting article.
In part two it asks almost the same question I did to start the thread:
"Did cloisonne bracelets exist in the Ming (and Qing) Dynasties?" (明清时期有没有掐丝珐琅彩手镯?)
What follows is a 5 paragraph history of cloisonne in China. It mentions that the variety of forms was very limited in the early-mid Ming:
"The shape of the utensils has not yet exceeded the "incense burners, boxes, pots, vases, etc." contained in Geguyaolun" (其品种也不多，器型尚不出《格古要论》中所载的“香炉、盒儿、盏子、花瓶之类”)
It concludes that:
"Cloisonné enamel bracelets likely did not exist in the Ming Dynasty. During the Qianlong period of the Qing Dynasty, the heyday of cloisonné enamel, they likely did exist." (掐丝珐琅手镯在明朝应该是没有的，清朝乾隆年间是掐丝珐琅的鼎盛期，应该是有的)
I should point out that the website is an open blogging/SEO/eCommerce platform, and anyone can publish anything there. I didn't see an author on the cloisonne page, so it's interesting, though not authoritative. And that's some good news for you! 😉
Hi, thank you Craig - Yes it is only interesting; not authorative - but lets look at the pros and cons. Colors, aging, pits, general structure, wear and layout of the mirrored taotie symbolic with roots in the ming era, are speaking for an old piece. Against that speaks the assumption "...that there HAS to be another one..." I only can say: they did it in the late qing to republic - why they shouldn´t have done it before ?; look at that battered bangle ( attached foto ) http://www.hyklbwg.com/hbgc/show.php?cid=85&id=457- that pieces are fragile - if mine survived the centuries i´m some lucky fella; if not i´m the owner of a godly copy of a qianlong cloisonne piece that has never existed in original...
Everyone who claims there are good copys of qianlong cloisonne enamel pieces - please show me one and let me learn, just one and put it to discussion. (it only has to be sure to be a copy and not falsely classified ) That proper "porcelain more than glass" recipes with ingredients like collodial gold and the like, that only fused with the matrix to the desired color when fired under a specific heat and time are NOT easy to redo, despite some state that; you would see them at every corner from Shanghai to Ebay ( with the time specific pitting, oxidation etc. etc. )
( look at the production of gold-ruby glass; recipes forgotten for a long time - same physical mechanism - Staatsgeheimnis )
Perhaps someone got the balls to attribute / classify it in the future; i´ll tell about that.
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