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@dante I learned a long time ago you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. Here is the problem you listed on the world market a Ming bracelet for a considerable amount of money but you offer no proof or providence. It’s not our responsibility to prove your item is authentic but you are the seller you better try to prove it is.
I started laughing when I saw the “Ming” cloisonné bangle. Then I saw a “Chenghua” enameled bowl. I was like OMG I can’t breathe. Lol
Okay; ill give it a last try.
like statet before by some other guys too the filling of old cloisonne pieces is clay based - this leads to a similar long time aging process you will find on pottery pieces - that rust spots you will find in the fillings of my bangle - a forger would have a hard time to fake them; they need centuries to develop.
http://ceramics.chalre.com/authenticating_chinese_ceramics/identifying_fake_ceramics_1.htm
A clay based filling is more dough like than glassy, the surface irregular; you will find that on my bangle - you will not find that on the machine processed / polished glass fillings of that ebay crap; sporting a ridiculous often metallic gloss - by the way it would be interesting to know where they took that design from since chinese designs are carried on for centuries; even if they look more 1980 than 1890 in there color scheme ( that ebay things ).
My bangle is obviously handcrafted it would be insane to sell them as a mass product and where are the other ones ?
The single colors are to 100 percent the same as on the bukowski bowl - is that a fake too ? I think not - the recipe for creating a specific color isn´t easy to find out, what an effort to create a fake-souvenir or the like.
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/574/1362-a-cloisonne-dish-ming-dynasty-17th-century
I´m glad Ubecha had a good time and enjoyed him or herself that much
@dante what do you mean by you will give this one last try? Do you think we are children here. They did make cloisonné with the same materials in the 19th century just not many but there were artist still making cloisonné the traditional way. A myth clay was filled with impurities some of the clay was extremely clean. Black dots are from solder as stated the surface of the ming cloisone is pitted and have black spots because solder was used to stick the wire to the bronze body. During firing this melts and comes to the surface. Myth cloisonné from the 19th century was not soldered I own several soldered pitted examples from 19th century. Fact I showed you a 19th century bangle with the same exact design but you have not produced one verified Ming bracelet of the same design. Your bracelet is probably antique but how can we determine anything without comparisons. Oh the wire is still consistent with later period. Other factor is the green enamel or clay could have its own unique composition. Myth no artist would make a complex piece of jewelry like this. I see complex copies every single day flowing out of China advanced techniques of cloisonné some better than the antiques it wouldnt take much for an studio to make this bracelet. One last thing is you could have a Ming bracelet I personally hope it is would be an amazing rare treasure I just need to see definitive proof to put it in my knowledge base.
Whoahh - a vulnerable narcissist ? Who is "WE" ? I insulted nobody here. No references provided by yourself, cocky master Yoda habits, not able to discuss a problem on eye level or to looking for solutions...A piece of the 19th century, disfigured by "upblopping" soldering rests directly, would have been brought to the trashcan immediatly and nowhere else. The not very reactive metals used for soldering stayed where they where supposed to stay- the soldering process was FINISHED before the fillings were applied - some abrasive polishing after that on later pieces and ready it was.
You are a cocky noob who likes to conduct monologues. Please kick me Admin; now i insulted Grandmaster Yoda.
Name calling and insults doesn’t make a defense of authenticity. It only weakens your credibility.
No it´s only a personal reaction - it has nothing to do with a clean discussion of facts - but you linked it directly - you see my problem.
Ah, let´s get back to a clean discussion. You got your knowlegde and experience, i got mine.
I was not able to "produce" one verified Ming bracelet of the same design in years; Christies was not, Sothebys was not, Zacke would have bought it directly - don´t know if they were, didn´t told me. But that is no proof, it is, or isn´t authentic.
@ubecha im just curious if your comment was supposed to do anything other than try to make someone feel stupid for trying to learn?
I know absolutely nothing about Ming cloissonne.
Whether it is or isn't I can't confirm but I do know that Sam Bernstein from www.bernsteinjadeart.com is a authority on said.
But Mr Bernstein charges for his time and experience etc.
If Zackes expressed interest perhaps chase them up. I have sold a couple of inro's to them recently. No problem at all. Very easy to deal with.
Christie's and Sotheby's are OK but not easy to deal with. Especially if you have no provenance or standing with either of them. And by that I mean you are a known customer.
Mark
@imperialfinegems Just a little tip: Chinese and Japanese Cloisonné Enamels by Sir Harry Garner is the Bible for authenticating and dating cloisonné works. This book is very well written and it is easy to understand. After you read it, you will find out that it’s actually much easier to authenticate and date cloisonné works than porcelains and bronzes. Best
@ubecha started laughing when I saw the “Ming” cloisonné bangle. Then I saw a “Chenghua” enameled bowl. I was like OMG I can’t breathe. Lol
I don’t believe this is a comparable the greens are different on the color spectrum. The wiring is much different also the the physical nature of the kiln firing to the enamels. When does close to it constitute authentication. This is window shopping. In Marks mentioning of the article it mentions known facts. A color palette is this lime green a know color palette possible but ask yourself what period did we see lime green the most when was it in fashion. I have looked at 1000’s of Ming cloisonné none are this color of lime green. Another factor the pinky red is this also a Ming color I have not found one are the yellows correct. Are the colors mixed if all we are talking about is black spots and clay how is this 19th century vase not Ming.
@lotusblack According to Sir Harry Garner’s book, pale colors like pale green or pale red (pink) in Ming cloisonné works were usually realized by mixing a darker color enamel with the white enamel because there was no pale colored enamels at that time. You are right that the cloisonné bangle is a much later work. In my opinion, it’s modern. Less than 50 years. Best
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