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Hello Julia; i was the seller who offered that green cloisonne bangle in that auction - i am still convinced it is Ming and happy i never sold it. It seems to be one of a kind - never found another one - and yes there is ironoxide in that fillings; black spots of oxidation; so it should be clay-based as mentioned by another expert; in glass they would show another appearance - i stopped all fooling around with selling it because the price seemed ridiculously low to me suddenly - researched and compared that piece to other avaiable dishes, vases, plates for years ; looked at it a thousand times and i am still convinced it is Ming. Kind regards Chris
Hi Chris,
Welcome to the forum! I hope I didn't sound rude/insulting or offensive/dismissive in my opinion as that was not my intention. To be honest I can't remember what it looks like. My opinion was given in good faith but I make no claims to any expertise. It is hard to make a decision on photos alone, who knows, if I saw it in real life I may change my mind.
I am pleased you are happy not to have sold it. 😊
Julia
Ah no, all is in order.
It was this one; a bit over-saturated on that old fotos; but i think the surface detail is good to see. ( up to make new ones, since i deleted the better fotos how it seems...)
The shape of the bangle is presumably best compared to jade bangles of the Ming; the same proportions.
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-5932258
Kind regards, Chris
@dante Welcome to the forum. In your research have you looked into the dating for that green color? I'm wondering how wide the span of time was where that would have been used, and if it was more prevalent at a particular time? At any rate, the bangle looks to have good age and be nice quality to my eyes. I think you made a good decision to keep it a bit longer while you sort it all out. John
@dante I been looking at some Ming examples to compare. Most of the time the green they used was a bit muddier in tone than your bangle, however some of the time it is lighter, like this one which I think is very close in color to yours: https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2019/important-chinese-art-n10113/lot.835.html
@johnshoe Hello John; the green of my bangle is a bit to deep/aggressive/intense on my fotos, i try to provide a better one in a second.
On my monitor this is next to reality; or that old Bukowskis reference https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/574/1362-a-cloisonne-dish-ming-dynasty-17th-century
@dante I have some black ground cloisonne pieces that I had thought might be Ming, but came to find out they were likely 19th C, because that is when the black ground became more of a thing. You probably need to find some more examples of the green ground pieces to compare and see what dates they are attributed to. If they all were to fall in that late Ming early Qing window then that would be a good sign. But if some of them creep up into 18th and 19th C then it will get trickier to date.
@johnshoe Yes, that was my thought too - and i found nothing - that´s why Bukowskis sold so "cheapo" and me not in the end - They tried and found out nothing ; but they where convinced, it is that old, by the marks of time and comparing them to other pieces in this regard and in terms of shape of the vessel. ( think they got some hired experts over there too; since they are not that specialized )
If that filling is clay-based on my old bangle, that explains the prominent "worming" iron oxide inclusions. This piece is more comparable to pottery/porcelain in its aging, than to glass. That oxide nests need a long time to wander through that dense material to the surface.
I will never stop to look for other references by the way, but that sadly is my state of knowledge in the moment.
Ah, one thing left to tell - a renamed and specialised auction house and gallery in Vienna was very fond of that bangle - they wanted to buy it from me directly, i refused, the price smelled fishy in relation to their lively interest. ( Ten minutes they needed to respond to my request for an appraisal...)
@dante It is pieces like your bangle that most intrigue me - when there are few or no known comps, but the evidence points to a certain authenticity. And often there is a divide among collectors when it comes to these things, with those in the no comps no way camp vs those in the no comps no problem camp. I try to stay balanced in the middle of those two extremes. Please share updates with us as you discover more. I'm curious to see what you discover. John
Ah, i gladly will.
Kind regards to all;
Chris
The Chenghua reign used a similar color scheme on enameled porcelains i found out; it might have been transported to later Ming and might have been forgotten onwards. ( https://inf.news/en/collect/7822170aa9785dd715898bb4a1d53d94.html )
( NO - i dont compare my humble bangle to that "godly" bowl ! I would build an own palace around THAT bowl if i had the funds...but the colors might have their origin in that era.)
I remember it now, thanks for the new photos. I still think it is later than Ming, although that is not to say it doesn't have some age as was said earlier on.
Interestingly, I was trying to see if there are any other examples of Ming jewellery; I ddn't find anything yet but on one site I read that for a very long time the colour green had negative associations as far as clothing etc went eg during the Yuan and Ming dynasties, "prostitutes and their families were regulated to wear green."
I don't know if that is true, but the bangle may have a colourful history! 😉
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