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I just saw this item listed in a Bidamount auction:
https://bidamountlive.com/product/a-ming-dynasty-cloisonne-bangle/
I'm mostly only curious, but were bangles like this one known in the Ming? Seems like a more modern form, but I have no experience in this area. I'm not meaning to cast any doubt, just hoping to hear other opinions or see some references. Thanks!
I'm not sure how you date these. I bought some from a guy in a park in Beijing, who acted all jumpy with his eyes darting around, reminded me of the raincoated watch salesmen cartoons. I'm all for free enterprise. I expect the ones I bought fell off a truck in 1992. Sharon
Haha Sharon great story, as per usual!
I was actually in Beijing myself in 1991 and bought many trinkets from street vendors. Most vendors, I think, had some sort of permit or "permit (wink wink)" to be selling. Others, outside the main tourist hot spots, down alleys and side streets, had their items in large briefcase-like boxes that could be folded up and dashed away in an instant. And on several occasions we saw them do just that, usually just moments before a plump policeman came strolling by.
These three were from the guy in the park and it is easy to see the Bidamountlive is better quality. The second one was purchased from a charity shop a few years ago, it is better quality, but the featured one is without a clasp so it could be older.
Thank you for sharing your cloisonne bangles, Sharon. I never would've guessed they made jewelry out of cloisonne.
I am dubious. I did a quick search on Ming jewellery and couldn't find anything like that from that era.
It does have an old look to the enamels but I can't quite see if the metal wires are of an even size.
I am inclined to think it is later than the seller thinks, but if it is misidentified, then maybe Peter will ask for the date to be corrected.
Edit: I didn't realise how well the photos enlarge! I think the metal looks very evenly sized and what appears from a distance to be pitting, looks more like black spots in the enlargement, if those observatikns are correct, maybe it is relatively recent?
Having a bit of a panic. Should I be making those comments? I have just remembered that anyone can read my posts, so let me make it quite clear that I am not speaking as an expert, I am not doubting the seller's honesty, I am just responding to a query on the basis of my own limited knowledge of the subject.
As I have often said, I find cloisonné can be tricky to date, but I am sure that if there is any doubt about this item Peter will have it amended. If he doesn't then maybe some of us will have learnt something about Ming jewellery. 😊
Hi Julia,
I also think it is probably a later example. Could be a late 19th century or even republican period. It's difficult to determine by the pictures. But definitely not Ming in my opinion. Although I am not an expert on these types of things. Just my opinion. Is it still up on the site? I just checked and can't see the listing.
Sam Bernstein from Bernstein jade art in San Francisco wrote an interesting article awhile back on a early ming cloisonne he discovered. It reads in part:
Mark
Thank you, Mark. Your dating fits with my estimation, too. Interesting info, as well; thanks for sharing that.
Julia, I suppose could have been a misprint and maybe it should read late Qing, but I do not know how to evaluate the age of cloisonne. Relax, everyone knows this is all opinion and I'm sure Bidamount will want us to be free to discuss things offered on their platform, the same as we do for things offered on other platforms. Sharon
Thanks for sharing your opinions, all!
@imperialfinegems Thanks, Mark, I feel like your dating is closer to the correct ballpark. But I too am (I hope obviously) not an expert. That's a very helpful quote from Sam Bernstein! (For those interested, the rest of that article can be found here.) Interesting to learn of the clay-based enamels.
@julia Thank you for taking a look, and I apologize for causing your panic! (After posting this topic, I felt the same uneasiness myself.) I was also unable to find anything similar when searching Ming jewelry. You mentioned that the size of the metal wires can be telling. Just speaking generally, could you expand on that a little bit? I think you might have been saying that uneven widths could indicate an older piece, but I don't want to assume.
I'm not sure if you'd all seen this, but the seller did provide a link at the bottom of the listing to a Ming cloisonne dish. Here it is:
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/574/1362-a-cloisonne-dish-ming-dynasty-17th-century
To my eye, the colors are comparable. Of course, that's only one part of the whole picture. The seller mentioned that their piece has "authentic patina". It's unclear to me what part of cloisonne becomes patinated, but I'd guess they're referring top corrosion on the copper wires.
For me personally, I'd want to see an example of a Ming cloisonne bangle with this exact shape and form. This shape and form is definitely known in the 20th century, thus leading to my initial doubts, but it could very well have its roots in the Ming.
@craig just checked, did not see it listed, so either it was withdrawn or someone snapped up the buy of a lifetime, the colors do look very similar to that bowl.
Thanks @sharonp, this item was listed in the Auction section, not the Shop. I'm still seeing it there, so not too late to add it to your collection! 😉
@craig Well it will be interesting to see where it ends up, I only like to pay picker prices and if I were "as rich as Rockefeller," I'd still only pay that amount, a personal failing. I forgot about the auction section, I'll have to check that out.
Hi Craig,
Yes, your understanding of what I meant is correct. As far as I am aware, I read this but it could be wrong, uneven widths of the wires forming the cloisons is an indication of earlier production. I would imagine that would apply equally to Chinese and Japanese.
I don't know whether that must be a feature as looking at the Bukowskis example (assuming that is dated accurately), they look equal and I can see why the seller used this as an indication of the age of his bangle. The thing is, as you say, the shape really has to be correct and I am not convinced - but happy to be proved wrong.
Julia
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