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Researching a Longquan dragon meiping - looking for a reference
I know how you feel, I recently had just purchased 2 Daoguang famille rose plates and just that same very day, in fact only 2 hours earlier, and they were packaged in a not so secure cardboard box which was then in the upside down position inside another bag that was the right way up, so when i set the bag down on hard granite! ( dont ask 🤨 I was sitting on a granite round stone set around a big brass scuplture) anyway when the I put the weight of the bag on the ground, the plates slipped forward from the cardboard box inside the bag and made contact with the granite from within the bag, and i heard that a dull chink sound, oh my!
There was a slight chip to the rim, just a few tiny flakes came off, but luckily i had the flake/s and intend to microscopically glue them back on to cover the tiny white chip.
A costly mistake, must never leave it to memorys sake and chance and make sure the item is secure from the foolhardy and hungry mind. 'I was chomping on a burger at the time' which also was annoying as after this it took away some of the succelent taste of the meal.
I guess in all I put the loss at £5. Luckily i had already devoured my chips before the tragic mishap and throughly savored that particular aperitif. I would take a picture but for security reasons, until I feel the plates are securly in my secret storage facility I do not want to risk anymore disappointment and I have tea and biscuit's soon and do not want the stress of re living the event to distrupt my biscuit dunking.
Yes I know that feeling. I had an expensive and fragile ivory netsuke for years. One day I decided to take better pictures of it. As it was so small I put it on a selfmade pedestal from where it fell down on the hard table top and a part broke off. Bought for €1500, sold for €30 on Ebay. Could have kept it but I just couldn’t stand it anymore, reminding me each day of my own stupidity.
@Shine/Vic - I know what you mean but I think it's best not to show any pictures of the meiping or reveal anymore details where I got it from or what was paid for it. That's probably what the lawyer would have recommended. It's also against my own politic. But I wanted to post some pictures of the Guan bowl now when it broke but there is a signature on the pictures that I'll have to remove first so it will take a while. There has been a number of very interesting Longquan pieces available at various places that would interesting to discuss here but unfortunately I haven't kept the pictures which I strongly regret now. Some of which I had doubts about the authenticity and besides I had decided to concentrate about the meiping since I was certain about that one and since it would be the most valuable of them. The exception was perhaps a very special pear-shaped vase also with applied dragons and waves that could also have very high value but this was one of the pieces I had doubts about. I have however kept some pictures of a few other interesting and valuable Longquan pieces that could be relevant in the this thread so I guess I'll post them later on ...
@Short Dong & Shinigami/Birgit - I guess many of us know that feeling all too well. But this was the first time a piece broke completely due to my mistake. It has happened a couple of times before that I have damaged a valuable piece but in both cases it was just a fragment that broke off and that could easily be reattached and thus the loss in value has been relatively modest. Now I've been busy researching Song dynasty ceramics with 'kintsuki' gold lacquer repair and there are actually a couple of Song dynasty Jun bubble bowls that have done quite well at Sotheby's and Christie's even though they have been completely broken apart and then repaired with the Japanese gold lacquer technique. So I guess that should cheer me up a little.
@ Short Dong again - may I ask if you have followed the forum during the time of your absence or not?
@ Short Dong again - may I ask if you have followed the forum during the time of your absence or not?
Yes, I have been following the forum, not as rigorously as i would have liked 🙂
I was busy doing a Film and Tv course and it was rather intense and required alot of work, we had to make films and documentaries, from pre production i.e writing the script.storyboard, scout location to production directing and camera work and cinematography and sound and audio to post production editing, special effects and sound editing. We even had to create a marketing plan and we had to learn to manage a Tv Studio, and create a Tv show, so I felt it better I did not engage too much.
I treated bidamount as procrastination, and tried keep my mind planted in 'the language of film' and film narrative. I am guilty of procrastinating, it is true. I had occasion to take my mind off things and browse bidamount forum and enjoyed secretly reading everyones posts. I also occasionally purchases some asian art and checked out some auctions. I also got a little more heavily into interior design and the history or art and design and how it coincides with Cultural theory and Literary theory and film theory.
As the narrative of film as we know it in hollywood is derived from Russian formalism or to be more exact Vladamir Propps 31 functions of russian fairytales and Sergie Eisensteins methods of montage and the russian school and hyper realism (special effects and artifical sound) derives from simulacrum as oppossed to realism.
I had to study hermeneutics versus new critics and structualism, post structuralism,deconstructism,feminism and de Saussure 'semiotics' ( icon, symbol and index) which led to Roland Barthes 'Culture code' and you had realism versus romanticism, post impressionism, fauvism, art nouveau, art deco, cubism,futurism, and in america social realism which gave way to abstract expressionism which then leads to german expressionism in German Cinema.
It was fascinating how there was such a conflict between Italian neo realism and holloywood formalism and telefoni bianchi. I love italian neo realism and films like 'bicycle thieves' really appeal to me.
This is a great reference to try make sense of all of these changes and movements
I was thinking it would be great to make a show about Antiques. Which has been done of course so many times. From Mr Pitchards patina to the Uk Antiques roadshow. However, I was interested in some of the online sellers and their world.
French philosopher Jean Baudrillard accords our culture has come to prize the simulation over the real. The “simulacra” is this representation. He has stated that the real has become so replicated that we have lost it. We have substituted the real for the fake and we have lost the ability to distinguish between the real and the simulation.
I think I'll skip posting the pictures of the Guan bowl now when I found out that a restored piece can still be very valuable if it's rare the quality is high. All the fragments rejoin perfectly except for a very small shard belonging to the rim which I can't find on the floor. It's still really is a shame since the bowl could probably have sold a million dollar or more if intact. Also very frustrating that I have some doubts about the authenticity but I guess I'll could have the fragments examined by a specialist to be certain. Untill then I guess I'll just put the fragments on storage.
Well, post a few pictures here. I am sure Giovanni or another of the experts will put your mind at rest. I am not an expert on Guan or any Song ware but the possibility of finding a million dollar bowl is well on the balance of probabilities unlikley to the extreme. If it is valuable and you do get it repaired then i hop at least you make a small profit to walk away from this.
Considering you can always buy a roman coin or artefact for a few pounds then I place little value on the very old items. I know that might be cynical but that is just from an Art market perspective, and not intrinsic or cultural and historical value.
Something that screams out at people is always going to have a higher value.
Well - I have already found two authentic Guan pieces with a potential value of a full million dollar each in the past. One of them - a 'Beishoku Guan' piece in rare shape that is identical with the exact proportions to a Guan piece in an unidentified Chinese museum that has a potential value of up to one million dollar. The other in a similar shape but with slightly different proportions - probably 'Xiunesi Guan' ware with a delightful blue color and ice crackle pattern with a potential value of at least one million dollar. Together they greatly accompany each other and as a pair is one of the absolute pearls in my collection.
I also had luck to purchase a rare almost certainly authentic Ming dynasty fluted Guan bowl nearly identical to a famous Guan bowl at British Museum earlier this year but that one is not nearly as valuable. A typical estimate for such a piece would probably be in the $100,000 - $150,000 range.
The problem with Guan ware is that it is being copied to perfection or near perfection. I see a lot of very convincing and highly appealing Guan pieces that I have to restrain myself from buying simply because I cannot be sure if they are authentic or not. Only in some cases there are some aspects so I can see that this is almost certainly authentic material like with the meiping and the other Guan piece.
This year I have had luck to purchase seven pieces with a potential value of $150,000 or more each but with two of those pieces I had some doubts about. The Guan bowl that broke being one of them. The other is a Longquan piece. The Guan bowl was the one I had the most doubts about but it was simply too nice to let go. So sad that it broke.
Here is an example of a very rare 'Beishoku Guan' piece potentially worth a million sold for a bargain ($14,260) at Helmuth Stone Gallery in Florida. It's the picture in the lower right corner if you click the link. https://helmuthstone.com/prices-realized/
A similar vase sold at Sotheby's for 1,7 million dollar against high estimate of one million dollar. It is very rare and highly desirable - only three or four similar vases are known that are all in museums. https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/tsuneichi-inoue-collection-l15319/lot.32.html I posted these links on the forum before by the way but there were absolute zero feedback ...
Here is another example posted especially for you, Short Dong - a Song dynasty Longquan Guan-Type vase sold for a bargain at Skinner where they had completely messed up both the description and the dating. The provenance was noted in the printed catalogue but for some strange reason doesn't appear in the online version.
The very same vase later appeared at Christie's but this time correctly described and dated and with a high estimate at one million dollar.
IF the Guan bowl that broke should turn out to be authentic it could likely make a "decent" profit rather than a "small" profit when repaired.
This Song dynasty Jun bubble bowl for example sold for $187,500 against a modest $15,000 - $25,000 estimate even though it had been completely broken into six pieces and repaired and with a fragment belonging to the rim missing and being replaced with filled in gold lacquer.
This Jun bubble bowl that has also been completely broken and repaired with 'kintsugi' gold lacquer sold for hk$750,000 at Sotheby's which was within the range of the estimate.
Jun bubble bowls like Guan bowls can be very valuable and both of these examples would probably have had a value of a million dollar or more if if intact. It is highly likely however that the provenance quoted has had a significant influence on the fine results in both of these cases.
Speaking of Jun bubble bowls - there was a really good pair available in an online sale earlier this year divided into two separate lots that appeared very convincingly authentic but again where I couldn't be certain they were not copies so I had to leave them even though they both sold for a very modest amount. As a pair they could be worth a full million dollar or more IF they were authentic. I have some pictures of one of them so I might post them later in another thread so you can see what I mean.
And then back on the topic of Jun ware with 'kintsugi' repair there is this narssicus bowl that also have been completely broken and repaired sold for £6,480 at Bonhams with no provenance quoted. But here I'm not sure what the estimate/sale-price would have been if intact. But I would guess it would have been in the $100,000 - $200,000 range. They sold a a very nice example that only had a restored hair crack for £45,600 even though it had a notable provenance (Bluett & Sons) and had appeared in an exhibition held by the Oriental Ceramic Society. (link can be posted on request) I would have thought that one was worth much more than that. The best of these can go up to one million or more.
And again @ short Dong again - Welcome back and nice to see you're busy with interesting projects. In the time during your absence I have posted many interesting, high quality and potentially very valuable pieces here to debate. One of them was this Jiajing marked Wucai thing - probably a censer- that I was hoping to snatch for a bargain but it sold for $2000. When I posted the pictures from the listing here people commented it was a modern fake. I then found out that it had late been sold at Sotheby's as a mark and period piece. For me this was a real thrill because it clearly shows me that I was right and they were wrong - at least in this case. But then when I posted the link to the sale at Sotheby's in the thread where people first commented it was getting completely ignored. Interesting, isn't it?
Picture from the original online listing in Japan. (note also the Japanese wood box)
Link to the sale at Sothebys.
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