Errol,

I believe both listings are one and the same vase as both have the same inventory number JZ101.

Thanks,

George 

Hi George:

Please let us know what you decide to do. It's a gamble either way. 

Regards,

Errol

Perhaps one of us could make an innocent enquiry as to why there are two available and what the chances are of getting both?  It is very odd.  Have you looked to see if any similar ones have sold by this seller - that would suggest production line.

However, looking at it fresh this morning, the over-riding aspect for me is the decoration, I can't stop seeing 1970s style, colours, it is quite evocative.  Having now seen Errol's vase with the similar handles etc, I think it must be the later date.

I haven't seen handles exactly like that before, Errol, not that I can recall, anyway.  I just felt they looked defined enough to be the earlier date.  Sometimes later ones appear rather soft round the edges, if that makes sense.  

I think it is a nice vase, hope you get it, George.

Julia

These colours are too strong to be of Republican period. I have never seen this kind of "intensity". And the painting style is also not correct for me. Birgit, Julia, Tam and others have enough experiences about Republican wares. If you feel strange about it at first view. There must be something wrong. I think it's later, 70s export.

Thanks for your favorable opinion Xin, but I was the one who thought it was authentic ?

Posted by: Shinigami

Thanks for your favorable opinion Xin, but I was the one who thought it was authentic ?

Somtimes it’s very difficult for me to keep everything in mind what I read. And I try to read fast. You see I was litte bit in a muddle… HA HA HA  ?  ?  ? 

Never mind. I know you have a good eye for those things (mostly ? ).

Hello all:

I think Xin is absolutely correct that the colors of this vase are too intense for the Republican period. Even my vase, which Sotheby's judged to be "modern" presumably c. 1980, does not have these strong colors. Also, I think  that the decorative items on the vase are too crowded together without any negative space.  So I would go further and suggest that this vase is more like 2016 in date of production or thereabout. I noted a peach among the decorative painted items on the vase. I occasionally eat at a Chinese restaurant  that has a large reproduction of the Nine Peaches Vases of the early Qing period. The colors are exactly like they are on this vase namely they jump out at one and I find the vase at the restaurant vaguely irritating because of that. One of the features of Chinese porcelains that attracted me originally was their subtlety as compared, for example, with the garish nature of many Sevres and Meissen porcelains. This vase lacks that subtlety. Although I said yesterday I would be pleased to own the vase, in the cold light of day I have changed my mind on that. It is too much like the restaurant vase! I'm attaching some photographs of a Vase with Nine Peaches from the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC. The vase has the Qianlong mark and is of the period. Now that is a lovely example of subtle and delicate coloring without any attempt to insert everything but the kitchen sink into the decoration!

Regards,

Errol

Dear George and all,

I take the opportunity to say something.

Generally, I like to say explicitly what I think about a piece. I am convinced that, especially in the case of expressing the opinion about a piece to a novice (clearly, it is not your case here), it is much more educative to tell to him that his piece is a trash, than telling him “your nice piece is not really of the period etc etc” as many does.

I think so because I believe that, if I am a beginner and someone with more experience tell me that what I think good is indeed a trash, my reaction would be “hey, I am completely wrong then. Better to study and increase my knowledge”.

I in fact believe that instead, for the same thing, it has been told to me, as a novice, that “your nice item etc etc”, then my reaction could be “hey, it is not what I was thinking, but it is not bad after all, they said that it is nice”.

But many times I have been accused (in other Forums) of being too much rude and not respecting the sensibility of the audience.

Then I in some case become a bit too much cautious and do not express clearly what I think.

It has been the case here, where I simply said that “in my opinion it can't be 1919, it is much later. I personally would not buy it”.

If I have to be more clear with what I meant, I must before say which is my approach of collecting.

I like the things that are clearly expression of the period or style that they are representing, pieces that retain the soul, the taste and the personality of a period. That is not only for Chinese porcelain.

What I mean is that for example, if I like Country furniture, I would have an original furniture, not an imitation of such furniture, which is always blatantly, evidently, not original and frankly horrible to me.

If I were living in USA and were rich, I would not build a mansion in Venetian style if I like Venetian, it would be horrible, really of bad taste. Much better to have a mansion in modern style then.

The above examples are clearly made to better show my approach, the vase in question here it is not falling in the same case, obvious. It is just to say that if I like an early 20^th century ware, I want an original early 20^th century ware, and not an imitation made in the seventies, which is a completely different era, with different taste.

I call this type of ware fake, regardless quality, because they are copying something, hence not original.  I perfectly know that that is questionable, others have another idea about what has to be called fake; I just am saying what I think.

Now, back to that vase, and to be clearer about my succinct comment.

“in my opinion it can't be 1919, it is much later.”: it can’t be 1919 because of the too much vivid colors, which one may like, but they didn’t exist in 1919. Also the black of the inscription is not of the period, it is too much black and too much bright.

“I personally would not buy it”: for the reason above, that one thing should reflect the taste of the period when it has been made, and not imitating a different taste. Note that in almost all such cases, the painter is never representing the piece as it should be, he is not resisting to the temptation of making it “nicer” to his eyes.

It is the case here. We have the Sanduo motif here, pomegranate, peach, Buddha’s hand. Usually this is a center motif. It is not mixed up with big peonies, and even less with birds.

The painter wanted to add interested (obtaining the opposite, to me) by mixing together things that doesn’t fit.

This is the reason why I would not buy it, because “it is neither meat nor fish”, as we say. (Don’t know if you have the same say in English).

Giovanni

Hi Giovanni , 

I think the expression is 'neither fish nor fowl' in English.

(Note here I said 'I think' even though I know )

Sometimes you may cause inadvertent offence to others here , because English is your second language and so you don't always include modifiers that native speakers use routinely in English (may, perhaps, could be , a little, somewhat, quite , fairly, seems to , possibly be, to me , I think,  ......the list is endless ...), and when you break bad news or contradict someone, or just give your opinion ,  it is necessary to use these modifiers - other languages , like Chinese , are much more direct, but it sounds rude when translated into English without  the modifiers even though there is no intention on your part to be abrupt or rude.. 

It is not that native speakers 'dress up' their opinion , or hedge, or leave room for doubt (though that may be part of it) , it's just a requirement of the language (and the culture - politeness is a very double edged sword -- if you are not polite in England , and don't say 'excuse me' , pardon' , 'thanks' all the time , people can get very aggressive in return).

On another (connected) point, if I were a novice with a piece of chinese porcelain that I thought could be old and posted on this forum, I would not prefer someone to say 'that is rubbish ' or 'obviously a new fake' , but would rather be let down gently 'this appears to be of quite recent manufacture and does not look  right for antique porcelain etc etc. ......' - the educative value is the same , and the message also is the same .

Cheers

Hello Giovanni and Tam:

I find myself ageeing with both of you. I live in the USA but my background and approach to things are English. I therefore always tend to be as polite as possible and try to avoid hurting the feelings of others. I like this Forum very much because everyone on it is so friendly and polite and there are no attempts to belittle others. However, one does have to take cultural differences into account as Tam points out. I have found during the many  years I have lived in the USA that my less direct English approach tends to be misunderstood by native Americans. They often don't understand nuance and subtlety very well. So if I'm considering an item and don't want to buy it and say instead that I'll think about it, I find they continue to pester me whereas a direct no would avoid that. 

I think though that if anyone on the Forum asks for an opinion on a presumed antique item, it is probably best to state one's honest opinion in an objective way without the use of derogatory or mocking terminology. I'd prefer to be told in no uncertain terms that I should not buy an allegedly antique item because it is a contemporary piece and therefore worthless than have everyone be too polite and leave me thinking the piece is not so bad after all as Giovanni points out.

All in all though, I think the Forum works very well compared to others I have been a member of. So I don't think this is a big issue here. In the case of this particular vase, I think almost everyone has advised George that the vase is recent, but that if he likes it as a decorative item he should go ahead and bid on it. I very much doubt that he was offended by any of the responses. The reponses might even have helped him to make up his mind one way or the other.

Regards,

Errol 

I agree with all of that.  As a novice, I want to be let down gently if I have bought some rubbish - by all means tell me so, but explain why it is rubbish because very often it is hard to see.  I try to explain why I feel something is wrong, to help the other person, but also because I may be wrong and some one more knowledgeable can put me right.  If I haven't yet bought something but am considering it, a much more ferocious "don't touch that" is fine, but again, a reason always helps.

As one of the British contingent, yes we do like politeness but having lived in other countries I know that what s considered polite varies: in Greece, it was explained to me that saying please and thank you all the time, especially for expected behaviour eg a parent giving its child a plate of food, would be borderline sarcasm.  It is interesting.

Anyway, back to George's vase.  What I like about it is the 70's feel.  To me it has some how captured this (for want of a better picture - I don't own this!):

I like that feeling it gives me.  But naturally, that is not a comment on artistic merit, just my nostalgia!

Julia

Julia,

Psychodelic and very groovy, yeah. Memories of driving around San Francisco in my ‘69 Austin ?

George

Dear Julia:

The only Ted Heath I remember is the late former British Prime Minister Edward Heath! I remember the election where he defeated Harold Wilson. That was a long time ago!

I have lived on three different continents and in three different countries. You are correct. It is amazing how different countries are regarding what is considered basic politeness. During visits to Greece I often found people to be abrupt and rather rude according to British standards, but I suppose that is just a reflection of a different cultural approach rather than true rudeness. When I first moved to the USA in 1977 I was amazed and delighted when people I didn't know wished me a nice day at the end of every interraction. It took me a couple of days to realize that that was terminology built into every discussion and just a way of being polite rather than reflecting any special concern on the part of others as to how the rest of my day would go. 

Best regards,

Errol

Errol, Julia, and Forum Members,

May we all continue to have great finds on eBay!

Have a Nice day ?

George

Dear George:

I have a mental image of you driving around San Francisco in your '69 Austin wearing your Handelian wig! 

Have you decided whether to bid on the now famous vase yet? I suspect that Julia wants to bid on it, but is too polite to ask you.

Have a wonderful day!

Regards,

Errol