Forgot the Christies link...

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-important-and-very-rare-beijing-glass-6182118-details.aspx?from=salesummery&intObjectID=6182118&sid=6165f6a5-2abf-48ca-82cb-ba776f720cc2

Should add that it was a nightmare to photograph, I don't have an ideal light setup for white glass :/

Nice!

I believe this is one for heavy weights on the forum.

Mark

If you hadn't posted the link to Christies then I would have said 'modern European glass' , because the style does not look chinese at all. The christies vase is very unusual. 

I think/guess  yours is modern:  the opaque effects on the body are different, and the blue glass applied to the mouth/neck also uses a different technique. But still , an interesting object. 

Posted by: tam18

If you hadn't posted the link to Christies then I would have said 'modern European glass' , because the style does not look chinese at all. The christies vase is very unusual. 

I think/guess  yours is modern:  the opaque effects on the body are different, and the blue glass applied to the mouth/neck also uses a different technique. But still , an interesting object. 

There is a great write up in the auction listing about how European glass makers helped develop Chinese glass making.

"The glass workshop of the Imperial Household Department was first established in 1696 during the reign of the Kangxi Emperor, and supervised by the German Jesuit missionary Kilian Stumpf (1655-1720). Lacking experienced local artisans at the inception of the glass workshop, European artisans were recruited to assist Stumpf, who also trained Chinese craftsman, as reflected in his letter to the French Jesuit headquarters in 1704, cited by Peter Lam in ‘Three Studies on the Glasshouse of the Qing Imperial Household Department’. Utilising his technical expertise and extensive glassmaking knowledge, Stumph later introduced the workshop to advanced glass formulas and forged a new practice of glass production by adopting new techniques. After Stumpf, two European glass specialists, Gabriel-Leonard de Broussard (1703-1758) and Pierre d’Incarville (1706-1757) joined the workshop in 1740, under whose supervision the making of imperial glass reached its peak until 1758 when the Jesuit management faded out.

With the introduction of new techniques in glass making, a much wider variety of colours and shapes in glassworks emerged during the early eighteenth century. Yet the present vase appears to be unique for Chinese glassware as it features blue lines trailing around the neck in threaded relief technique, which finds its roots in western practice, therefore possibly attributing the piece to Imperial glassworks. Although relatable pieces of this type can be found, the threaded design is usually worked into the clear glass ground rather than in relief.

A comparable example with opaque white striations swirling across the body, dated to the Qianlong period, is in the Beijing Palace Museum, illustrated in Luster of Autumn Water: Glass of Qing Imperial Workshop, Beijing, 2005, no. 111 (fig. 1). Another related example in the form of a flower vase with a multi-coloured stand, shows a relief threaded mouth rim in red glass, also illustrated ibid. no. 50 (fig. 2). The splashing technique seen on the present vase is more common as it appears regularly on snuff bottles, although it can also be found on a red and white speckled bowl, illustrated ibid. no. 154, where the speckles are also worked into the clear glass ground."

I have to mention that I struggled with the photos to get the details out, and that the blue might seem lighter in my pictures than it actually is. When I compare the picture of the Christies vase to the actual blue on the spiral of my vase, they are the same shade of blue. Furthermore, and this is something I've not seen on other glass vases before, the spiral isn't just cut off and ends instantly, there is a line no thicker than a hair for about 3-4 cm of where it was supposed to end. I thought it was a little peculiar.

But I do understand where you're coming from, I've looked at this vase before in passing (he has had it for at least a couple of years), and dismissed it as new or 'not old', and I'm not ashamed of admiting that I'm still on the fence about it.

Hello Michael:

I know nothing about Peking glass. However, the similarity of the vase you found to the Christie's one is quite striking. Of course, I respect Tam's comments regarding the differences between them though. I too would never have thought this was a Chinese vase. It has a sort of Art Deco appearance. I see from the Christie's catalog that a sort of average auction price estimate would be about $50,000 (USD). So you have either picked up a bargain (I assume you did not  pay too much for it) or you have something that looks similar to the Christie's vase but that could be a modern reproduction of it. If you like it, no harm will have been done. Also, a professional appraisal might have a surprising result!

Regards,

Errol

Posted by: ErrolL

Hello Michael:

I know nothing about Peking glass. However, the similarity of the vase you found to the Christie's one is quite striking. Of course, I respect Tam's comments regarding the differences between them though. I too would never have thought this was a Chinese vase. It has a sort of Art Deco appearance. I see from the Christie's catalog that a sort of average auction price estimate would be about $50,000 (USD). So you have either picked up a bargain (I assume you did not  pay too much for it) or you have something that looks similar to the Christie's vase but that could be a modern reproduction of it. If you like it, no harm will have been done. Also, a professional appraisal might have a surprising result!

Regards,

Errol

They certainly have differences and similarities, which one could argue makes sense if it was from a period where they experimented to learn new things in the craft.

The smart thing would probably be to take a couple of better photos in daylight and send them to Christies, although I expect they will probably like to see it in person rather than say anything only based on pictures. It certainly can't hurt! ?

And You're right, I payed very little.

~ Michael

Just for the fun of it, I placed it on one of my good stands next to some porcelain. ? 

Dear Michael:

I hope you won't be offended if I say that the vase while pretty does not look as if it "belongs" with your other items. No one would argue that your Langyao vase, blue prunus vase, famille verte dragon vase and Guanyin are not Chinese. However, your new acquisition looks a little odd on that lovely stand. I hope for your sake that you have picked up a $50,000 vase for a pittance. However, even if it is a Chinese antique is has an inescapably modern look to it.

Kind regards,

Errol

Hi,

Does your vase have a pontil mark on the base?  Isn't that one way of assessing age?  Obviously, it isn't an absolute marker as modern vases may also have them depending on their manufacture, but I am certain an old vase would have to have it.

I am dredging this up from memory, so I may be wrong, but it seems worth considering if you haven't already.

Julia

Posted by: Michael M.

Hello everybody,

When the latest bunch of Christies auction catalogs came out (the Asian week that just finished), I noticed the Beijing glass vase that was featured, and it looked very similar to something I remembered seeing somewhere locally, but I just couldn't remember where.

Well, today I did find out where, and picked up the vase from a local antiques dealer.

The vase has a smooth clear glass interior, with an exterior overlay of textured white glass (on close examination, there are a couple of very small spots of ruby red glass, which I assume must have ended up there by accident). It has an overlay in dark blue glass in a spiral pattern around the neck. The top leans slightly to one side.

The foot is polished flat with no visible pontil mark. It doesn't look like it was machine polished. There is a small amount of wear.

Could this be a Chinese vase, or is it a good reproduction, if these have even been reproduced? I'm pretty skeptical myself, but stranger things have happened!

Thoughts?

-- attachment is not available --

Julia:

Michael indicated that there was no visible pontil mark on the base - the foot is apparently polished flat.

Errol

Thank you, Errol.  How did I miss that? ? 

Posted by: Julia

Hi,

Does your vase have a pontil mark on the base?  Isn't that one way of assessing age?  Obviously, it isn't an absolute marker as modern vases may also have them depending on their manufacture, but I am certain an old vase would have to have it.

I am dredging this up from memory, so I may be wrong, but it seems worth considering if you haven't already.

Julia

Well, it has been a bit tough finding pictures of what the foot should look like (it would have been really nice if Christies had included that in the listing), the closest has been peking glass, and from what I've seen, the feet are usually ground down, some with added cut reign marks.

Usually, on older European glass, you almost always look for a pontil mark (I know I do), but I've also run across many examples where the pontil marks have been totally ground away, especially on more elaborate, or what one must assume must have been more expensive glass at the time it was made.

If anyone has access to the book referenced in the essay from the listing (Luster of Autumn Water: Glass of Qing Imperial Workshop), it might shed more light on how it is supposed to look. ? 

*Heading to Bookfinder to find out how excessively expensive it might be*