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Enough, this is so sad and I am already sad, please get some help.
Don't be concerned Darling, Let them answer the one question I asked of them it's simple!
I can see there's been a spirited discussion on the topic of glazes and authenticity. I thought I'd add my two bits on the topic.
1. Regarding the Getty Conservation Inst. book by David Scott VIEW and Read The BOOK HERE
"From the book, Copper and bronze in art by David Scott The existence of malachite formation over a layer of cuprite is supported by analytical and metallographic studies is a good indication of the authenticity of an artifact.) "
First, Mr. Scott is not talking about ceramics, but specifically about Metals, specifically Copper and Bronzes. Further, he is discussing Layers of natural metallurgic oxidization over time. He is talking about the metal TRANSITIONING over very long periods of time from metal>Cuprite>Malachite, he is not talking about the presence of Copper base minerals present in ceramic glazes, which can be bought today from numerous supply houses.
The full content of the above quote from Mr. Scott spoke specifically to Bronzes and Metals over time and has been used out of context here to argue the authenticity of a ceramic glaze.
Here is the SECTION from this 500 page plus book. Yes, I have read most of it.... a great sleeping pill but good content if you're interested in Ancient metals.
Malachite in bronze patinas
Although malachite is only a minor constituent of patinas that
develop on exposed bronze objects, it can be a significant component of patinas that develop during the corrosion of copper alloys buried in the soil, where
the first product to form adjacent to the metal is cuprite; malachite usually forms over this initial cuprite layer. The uniform growth of this corrosion accounts for the attractive patina seen
on many bronze antiquities.
The natural transition of metal to cuprite to malachite is very difficult to replicate in the
laboratory. In fact, most of the recipes for producing artificial green patinas on copper alloys,
such as those compiled by Hughes and Rowe (1982), do not result in malachite formation over
a cuprite layer. Consequently, the existence of this type of corrosion, supported by analytical
and metallographic studies, is a good indication of the authenticity of an artefact.
2. The alleged CABAL, sorry this is a silly canard and on its face is absurd. Many, many, many rare things from obscure sources turn up at auction houses all over the world including Bonhams, Sotheby's, and Christie's, and are sold for significant sums ( millions) annually. Things get sold at rural auction houses for modest sums and get resold at larger firms for hefty profits as they have a broader market all the time. The idea that Museum curators, scientists, archaeologists are all cowed by three auction houses into submission is just silly rubbish. I've known many from all of the above categories. Healthy debates between all of them happen in the Asian and other areas of art all the time. Nobody is controlling anyone in some kind of a massive Cabal or conspiracy to regulate the market.
I hope this helps...
Thank you Peter. 😁
Hi Mark and JT,
I've been watching the thread for a while and have been hesitant to jump on as "the obvious" is just so "obvious" as you guys and gals have pointed out.
The debate is not really a debate at all, but a misguided pendantic attempt to ignore reality by inserting nonrelevant data to make a supportive point to validate a prejudicial view. The elephant in the room that's being ignored by the owner is a simple $500 TL test done at Oxford is all that's needed here. Other places do them, however for a small side fee, many will give you any data you wish to accompany your objects. So only Oxford should be used reliably.
We're the owner truly convinced of the age of these examples, a TL test would have been long ago since been done. He would in turn would have sold the finest porcelain collection of great rarities in the history of Asian Art collecting and pocketed over a billion dollars. Alas, that has not happened and the reason why is obvious.
It is amusing though.
Best to you Mark and everyone here!
New to posting to the forum, but have been a reader for years. I remember a few years ago coming across his Ru ware videos and being (at the time) a complete newcomer to the field of Chinese porcelain immediately laughed at the absurdity of his videos. He lost me at conspiracy, but I agree with everyone that it is sad he is the first result when looking for Ru ware information on YouTube.
Anyway, I just wanted to mention that even to a complete newbie like me his videos came across as ridiculous.
All the best,
Thank you Peter ...😉
Thank You Peter for making my point! I was not at all speaking about the ceramic glaze. I was speaking about the metal bands that are made of copper and are fire gilded on top of the copper bands and these bands were placed around the Rim and base and sometimes only the rim on certain Imperial Ru ware. So you can see this I'll attach some photos so you will know exactly what I'm speaking about
These are closeup photos of some of these fire-gilded copper bands that are around the rims of certain Imperial Ru Ware Pieces.
There are many issues, but I just wanted to say that your use of the metal bands to authenticate your pieces is the only thing you think you have going for you, but it assumes the blue and red material is both cuprite and malachite.
It's "the uniform growth of this corrosion [that] accounts for the attractive patina seen on many bronze antiquities." David A. Scott, Copper and Bronze in Art: Corrosion, Colorants, Conservation 123 (2002) (emphasis added). In my opinion, I see no uniformity of the growth. Also curious that there's such a polished new surface on this growth that is supposed to be uniform.
Further, malachite's color is a pale green, id. at 102, with crystal faces often striated, with sharp internal and external angles, id. at 105. Your photos speak for themselves against you here, so I won't linger. I suggest you view the image plates, particularly plate 20 on page 183 of the book to see a real example of this.
Also, you provide the quote "the existence of malachite formation over a layer of cuprite is supported by analytical and metallographic studies is a good indication of the authenticity of an artifact" from Scott to fit your point. However, Scott clearly states that "the existence of this type of corrosion, supported by analytical and metallographic studies, is a good indication of the authenticity of an artifact." Id. at 106. I don't know in what language a comma magically transforms to the word "is," but it follows plainly that the mere existence of this type of corrosion in addition to analytical and metallographic studies would be a good indication of the authenticity of the artifact, and that without such studies on the artifact, it is not a good indication of the authenticity of the artifact. I'd love to see the analytical and metallographic studies on your pieces confirming that it is indeed bronze under cuprite under malachite that you so claim.
I'd say that you would benefit from joining a community that has similar passion for Asian art, where we can all learn from each other, but it seems you've already made that step in the right direction by paying your monthly dues to this wonderful forum.
Also, thank you @plcombs for that free book link. I've been looking for a resource on bronzes, as I'm completely new to the area, and I found it incredibly interesting and informative.
My point on the glazes was only that despite being new, after firing under magnification you will find malachite and copper deposit crystals. It requires no time at all to get them started, same for copper. It's a given that copper alone or even with gilding on it will oxidize and grow assorted crystals within a matter of months to a year or so.
Crystals Versus Layers
I am afraid you're confusing layers via TRANSITION to PATINA with crystal formation patinas.
One is transforming Copper/Bronze to malachite layers over time. You have simple crystals that can form on copper or bronze in a matter of months.
Gilt copper for example results in a porous surface under the gold which can also begin creating these crystals under normal atmospheric conditions in a matter of months. They will then grow on the surface over the gold just as your heavily magnified images show. Those are not layers, but crystal growths.
I have seen hundreds of fakes of "Shang" style bronzes with red cuprite and greed malachite crystals all over them, they have been induced chemically and they just sit on the surface. It can be done in a matter of days.
As an aside, the bronze portholes on my boat have tiny bits of red cuprite and Malachite patination/crystals all over them by the end of each season, despite being polished each spring. We had copper gutters added to a house years ago, shiny as gold when put up, but were covered with patina within one year near the ocean.
Look, instead of continuing your deeply confused amateur chemistry angle, take your best piece and have it TL tested at OXFORD, they can take the sample here in the US at a number of locations and send it for you. It's just that simple.
If you're not willing to do that after all these years of flogging these pieces around it's because you know the answer. The pieces are not old, as you've been told by many folks for many years.
If you just want to argue, you'll never get anywhere on this. It's all so ridiculous.
Nice collection from eBay & Alibaba 🤣 🤣 🤣 Mark, just give up!
By the way Trump won the election! 😉
(From the book Copper and bronze in art by David Scott The existence of malachite formation over a layer of cuprite is supported by analytical and metallographic studies is a good indication of the authenticity of an artifact.)
Peter, I can't understand Why it's so hard for you to see the truth. click enlarge the first photo and Look closely at it You can clearly see the formations of malachite over a layer of reddish cuprite crystals. (The first photo on left is a close of the copper gilded band) (The middle photo is of a malachite formation) (The last photo shows a Cuprite Crystal Formation)
I'm not out to ruin you, all I'm working for is a free open art market for all people. I will not take any piece to Oxford for TL testing until they clean up the testing and stop cheating people that are using them. I hope you didn't tell 100 people with Shang bronzes that showed what David Scott wrote about I don't believe you know more than him.
Attached is am image off of a bronze laying around here thats less than 10 years old with an induced surface. Both Cuprite and Malachite crystals are both just minor ores of Copper or Copper oxide. The appear on modern copper pipes and objects all the time and are not an indication of anything other than having been exposed to hard water, salts, environment etc.
OK, so stop spinning the research paper by Mr. Scott to fit your argument, its silly.
Ask any plumber how often he see this happen each week. Here's an excerpt from an article about the problem and whats on your copper rims. I've seen identical formations on our boats plumbing for years. .
Pitting corrosion of copper in water has been categorized into at least three types based on water chemistry and physical features: cold-water (Type I) [2, 8–10], hot-water (Type II) , and soft-water (Type III) . Soft-water copper pits are described as being relatively wide and shallow and consisting of an exterior layer of bronchantite [Cu4(SO4)(OH)6] and/or malachite [Cu2(CO3)(OH)2] over a layer of crystalline red-brown cuprite [Cu2O] and the corroding copper surface. The voluminous corrosion deposits of the exterior layer are released to the water and can potentially cause water blockage. Waters having low conductivity, low alkalinity, and relatively high pH are typically associated with soft-water pitting.
The Effect of Phosphate on the Properties of Copper Drinking Water Pipes Experiencing Localized Corrosion
Extensive localized or pitting corrosion of copper pipes used in household drinking water plumbing can eventually lead to pinhole water leaks that may result in water damage, mold growth, and costly repairs. Water chemistry has been recognized as the cause of some community-wide copper pinhole leak outbreaks.
Your theory is just hogwash.
As for your refusal to have an Oxford test done, it is equally ridiculous.
If they are not accurate you might consider why the following museums use them regularly for dating purposes.
The Ashmolean Museum, Oxford; The British Museum, The Victoria and Albert Museum, National Museums and Galleries, Liverpool; National Museums of Scotland, Edinburgh; Merseyside Maritime Museum, Liverpool; Allard Pierson Museum, Amsterdam; Musee Barbier-Muller, Geneva; Museum Rietberg, Zurich; Musee d’Art et d’Histoire, Geneva; Modena Museum, Italy, Asian Art Museum, San Francisco; Baltimore Museum of Art, Museum of Fine Arts, Boston; Brooklyn Museum of Art, Cincinnati Art Museum, Cleveland Museum, California Museum of Ancient Art, Museum of Fine Arts, Houston; Los Angeles County Museum of Art, The Metropolitan Museum of Art, The New Orleans Museum, Milwaukee Public Museum, Harvard University Art Museums, Indianapolis Museum of Art, Isabella Gardner Museum, The Freer Gallery, Washington; The Arthur M. Sackler Foundation, Philadelphia Museum of Art, National Gallery of Canada, Ottawa; The Art Institute of Chicago, The Saint Louis Art Museum, Missouri; Winterthur, Delaware; Royal Ontario Museum, Toronto; The George R Gardiner Museum, Toronto; National Gallery of Art, Washington.
or I suppose you know much more than all of these institutions do? Of course, you don't, you've got a pile of repros, with no provenance that can be bought on eBay, and Alibaba 24/7/365.
So let's just call it a day, you've wasted a lot of time and hopefully not too much money, you've been had.
Your theory is a bizarre mixing of "Apples and Oranges", call and talk to any high school chemistry teacher, he can easily grow the crystals on your piece in a day or so with simple household ingredients. Or go check your copper pipes.
I can't believe Your Gall, Where did you get that photo put the picture up of the whole piece.
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