@short-dong 

on chocolate pot I was going by made Japan mark did it have a paper sticker on it or did someone tell you China made and when. I just got around to looking up your mark on  here this is what was said on the satsumas site. It better made but the same pot style. You said it made in the 80s it’s useing Japanese pottery company name and marks and crest and not being sued. There is a reason I ask, The site want let me post pictures John

the other, all reserved on a sparse geometric motif ground, one signed Nippon Gyokushu, both vases 23.5cm Moriage Gold Gilt Pouring Jug, decanter. H.17.5cm. Assumed not the Gyokushu above and possibly even not Japanese but Chinese (in spite of the Dai nippon en Shimzah crest)

Posted by: @john-steward

Hello,Short Dong 

the only information on this artist form all my digging if you look at the blue on these vase it call Gosu blue here some information from Gothenburg. You might want to research this color there is a debate about when it was stoppedThere are over 2,000 names and marks on the site I posted. They only show he operated in Meiji period. John

The colour Gosu Blue is an on glaze enamel found on a type of Satsuma which used to be called Imperial Satsuma in mid to late 19 century. Gosu Blue is distinctive and very thick, that can be either dark blue, green or black depending on the firing. "Satsuma Gosu Blue" was produced in very limited quantity in Kyoto in the mid-19th century, and is now the most sought after of the Satsuma wares. Japanese Gosu blue enamel Gosu blue is usually dense, and even when thinly applied one cannot see through it, and it does not get less dense when thin. The colour Gosu Blue is an on glaze enamel found on a type of Satsuma which used to be called Imperial Satsuma in mid

 

https://www.antiquers.com/media/akira-flash.8540/full?d=1615391907

 

Japanese Porcelain Marks - Ming Zhi - 明志 - Akira KokorozashiMing Zhi - 明志 - Akira Kokorozashi Meiji period

  Take note of the imperial Seal that the green arrows point too.

Sold for £ 1,762 

Asian Art, European Ceramics & Glass

Jul 2005

The Imperial Seal of Japan or National Seal of Japan, also called the Chrysanthemum Seal (菊紋, kikumon), Chrysanthemum Flower Seal (菊花紋, 菊花紋章, kikukamon, kikukamonshō) or Imperial chrysanthemum emblem (菊の御紋, kikunogomon), is one of the national seals and a crest (mon) used by the Emperor of Japan and members of the Imperial Family. 

The colour Gosu Blue is found on a type of Satsuma which used to be called Imperial Satsuma circa late 19 century. Gosu Blue is distinctive with a very thick glaze that can be either dark blue, green or black depending on the firing. "Satsuma Gosu Blue" was produced in very limited quantity in Kyoto in the mid-19th century, and is now the most sought after of the Satsuma wares.

Bonhams

A FINE IMPERIAL SATSUMA VASE AND DOMED COVER

Take note there is not an imperial Seal on the vase that I can see.

I have questions of my own nothwithstanding the present argument but as a sidenote... why does Gosu blue get to be called imperial satumsa and not carry an imperial seal?

in relation to Akira KokoroozashiMing Zhi so called backmark...In my opinion this name is being misued and or invented and it is a scam propogated to try and make the appearence of Royal Satsuma from china 1980 as genuine Japanese Meiji satsuma so they can sell it at ridiculous rates to unsuspecting buyers. I think it is a scam. It is working it seems and catawiki and other sites are selling these wares as genuine meiji antiques and or there really is some innocent meiji artist that has nothing to do with the fake Royal satsuma 1980 backmark. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/333265735043?hash=item4d982f8d83:g:npIAAOSwa0VaEoEx

For some clarity of the discussion here are some examples. 

I took some images from bonhams of the satsuma using 'Gosu Blue' search term for reference and then searched bonhams for another set of images of the search term using 'Imperial satsuma' 

Gosu Blue _  (Bonhams) 

(Desite the gotheborg claim of being highly sought after, all of the images below all sold from a few hundred £pounds to 1 or 2 thousand £pounds with the trumpet vase selling highest for 3-4 thousand.) 

A massive gosu-blue Satsuma trumpet vase
Meiji era (1868-1912), late 19th century

A SATSUMA KORO (INCENSE BURNER)
Meiji era (1868-1912), late 19th century

UNZAN (ACTIVE LATE 19TH CENTURY)
A Satsuma ewer
Meiji era (1868-1912), late 19th century

TANZAN (ACTIVE LATE 19TH CENTURY)
A Satsuma incense burner
Meiji era (1868-1912), late 19th century

A SATSUMA VASE 
The first by Nanko, Meiji era (1868-1912), late 19th century

A SATSUMA VASE WITH APPLIED SILVER MOUNTS
Meiji era (1868-1912), late 19th century

Imperial Satsuma (Bonhams)

LOT 278
A LARGE IMPERIAL SATSUMA VASE
Meiji period
£ 3,000 - 4,000

*********************

A FINE IMPERIAL SATSUMA VASE AND DOMED COVER
Meiji Period
The oviform body decorated in rich turquoise, gilt and coloured enamels with two heart-shaped panels depicting a ho-o bird above peony, and a profusion of flowers beside a garden fence dividing four smaller panels on the turquoise ground decorated with nami-ni-chidori and shishi-no-botan, signed on the base Satsuma Yaki beneath the mon of Lord Shimazu, 35.5cm.(14in.) high (2)

********************

A PAIR OF IMPERIAL SATSUMA VASES
Meiji period
The shouldered oviform bodies painted with birds in garden of tree peony, prunus and magnolia, on wood stands

*****************

LOT 33
AN IMPERIAL SATSUMA VASE
Meiji Oviform with lion mask handles, painted with panels of chrysanthemum (lacking cover),
11.5cm high
Sold for £ 199 (€ 233) inc. premium

Jul2006

None of the vase's has the imperial seal but are titled Imperial Satsuma and that 'rings true' for what gotheborg said about Gosu blue being Imperial Satsuma, but the prices however are not as high for these 'gosu blue' imperial satsuma compared to Kinkozan and other later satsuma. I will take notice that there is some large crackle in the last item, which sold for £199.

Hello, Short Dong 

my information comes for studying and Met Museum and Victoria and Albert Museum. If you had studied Gosu blue you would have known it’s cobalt blue. 
here some information on this in 1830 they developed a chemical cobalt blue. 
and no it was not just used for imperial family. Study more John

        Gosu (呉須) Pigment made of natural cobalt (~5% cobalt content). Historically, magnesium, iron, and aluminum impurities gave this glaze a greyish-blue tone (Crueger et al. 2006:286; Ross 2012:5). Around 1870, gosu was replaced by a chemically-produced and less expensive cobalt oxide that creates a brighter, more intense blue (Jahn 2004:342). While most of the ceramics in this collection are decorated with chemically-produced cobalt, AACC-99-009 appears to have been hand painted with natural gosu pigment. View Gallery Browse Records Top of Imari Asagao Namasu-Zara (Imari pickle dish with morning glory design) Top of Imari Asagao Namasu-Zara (Imari pickle dish with morning glory design) Item Record « Glossary Historical Japanese Ceramic Comparative Collection The Historical Japanese Ceramic Comparative Collection (HJCC

@john-steward

Hi John,

The backmark on your lidded vase is a spurious backmark, Spurious:not being what it purports to be; false or fake.

That is what catawiki expert Natalie Alfers has decided of the backmark that is on your lidded vase. All the different antique forums all have concluded that these ( Chinese royal satsuma) that contain this spurious backmark are just that Modern chinese. They have all concluded that these ( Chinese royal satsuma) are not japanese satsuma and are NOT antique and are not of any real value.

You lidded vase in your second OP picture:

The backmark is a spurious backmark. 

As for the colour in the lidded vase being ' gosu blue' in my opinion it is not 'gosu blue' in real sense of the word. It might be similar to gosu blue but it is not 'gosu blue' in the context of it being imperial satsuma or being antique or having anything special about it other than it is a shade of blue. 

Your lidded vase is not satsuma.

Your lidded vase is not Japanese.

It has been an educational journey once again re examining these modern chinese Royal Satsum and as I have one in my possession i am always interested to learn if any of them have an origional source or artist and or if any have any real value. So this has been educational as they do seem to be trying to copy Imperal Satsuma but again this tangent has led to a dead end. 

Hello, Short Dong 

The vase with lid does not have Gosu blue but it is Japanese satsumas  and not Chinese.
I’ll go with the experts from museum , I gave you some very good informational site for dating pieces the gold along will age a piece it look to me you don’t want to know. I posted a very good Met Museum article with some very beautiful pieces. You might enjoy if you read it, that why I study everything I can about what interest me because I want to know. John

@john-steward This is the vase you claim is Japanese Satsuma? 

A Museum has confirmed this is Japanese satsuma?

Just so there is no misunderstanding....... You claim your Vase in the pictures is japanese Satsuma?

You claim a Museum has confirmed that this type of vase above is Satsuma or that your vase is satsuma. Is this a hypotethical where you imgaine what a museum would say about your vase.

Hello Short Dong 

Sorry for taking so long to respond, What I’m saying is that I study my stuff.I have a request in for information on artist who painted the piece. There is only one true satsumas pieces you need to read all this from Gothenburg. John

Satsuma Jar Large Satsuma vase depicting the seven gods of good fortune. Height: 38 cm. Mark: Dai Nihon Satsuma Gyokusen zo. Meiji period, circa 1880s. Photo: Curtesy Ian and Mary Heriot Coll., New Zealand 2019. The typical Satsuma ware we most of the time comes into contact with is a yellowish earthenware usually decorated with a minute decoration with Japanese figures, expressive faces or detailed oriental landscapes, or sometimes embellished with vivid dragons in relief. This ware is in fact an export product specifically designed in the mid 19th century to cater to the western export market. The Japanese themselves had very little interest in this ware. From around the 1890s to the early 1920s more than 100 artist at least twenty larger studios or factories were producing "Satsuma" wares of which much were of low quality and destined for the European and American export markets. Most of the marks below will detail this latter wares since this is what we see most of. At the same time, other artists were producing exquisite wares of the highest quality. There were many masterpieces created during its heyday and several studios have created eternal fame for their names with these magnificent wares. Most high quality export 'Satsuma' is easily recognized by its finely crackled glaze and by the fact that its yellowish earthenware body does not "ring" when tapped. The production soon spread to several cities such as Kyoto, Tokyo, Nagoya, Yokohama and elsewhere throughout Japan, from the Meiji period (1868-1912) up until today. Wares of the Original Satsuma Han The original Satsuma Han however has a much longer history than that. If you click the map icon to the right you will find this as the Satsuma area on the southern Kyushu island. The first historical kilns here were established by Korean potters in the late 16th century. These first wares were a massive and hard stoneware, covered with a thick dark glaze, a ware that are so rare that only museums might have a few to show. The circle with a cross that often make up a part of the marks, are the Shimazu mon or the family crest of the clan that ruled Satsuma Han however I doubt that any one of the Shimazu clan ever owned or, let alone ordered one Satsuma export style ware piece to be made. If that however had been the case, the crest would in that case been blue, since that was also the Shimazu clan colors. Satsuma export decorative style The success of the Satsuma export decorative style inspired many followers, some of which have a stoneware body or one of pure white porcelain. Just to make it easier for the interested collector to find his way to the information offered here, I have chosen to collect any and all Satsuma looking wares, here. Ceramics bearing the Satsuma Kamon were made well outside of the borders of Kyushu. Items for export were often decorated with obscure and unrelated themes chosen for their drama and exoticism. These wares thus inspired a whole design movement in the West known as Japonism. Satsuma was produced in Kagoshima, Kyoto, Tokyo, Osaka, Kobe, and Kanazawa by hundreds of known artists, in many styles and by literally thousands of unknown decorators. Meizan has pieces authenticated as being done in Kanazawa (Kutani). For most of the "Zan brothers" (marks incorporating the Japanese character for mountain = zan) nothing is known. In spite of very good quality work, many good pieces are simply unmarked. The colour Gosu Blue is found on a type of Satsuma which used to be called Imperial Satsuma circa late 19 century. Gosu Blue is distinctive with a very thick glaze that can be either dark blue, green or black depending on the firing. "Satsuma Gosu Blue" was produced in very limited quantity in Kyoto in the mid-19th century, and is now the most sought after of the Satsuma wares. A comment on Kyoto or Awata wares as compared to Satsuma ware is that pieces manufactured in Awata near Kyoto, after the Edo period, are all called Kyoto Satsuma. Later on, Satsuma style wares was also produced in Yokohama and Tokyo. The paste and glaze is probably the same as on Satsuma ware while the style of decoration is different. Sandra Andacht, in her Treasury of Satsuma book, quotes a 19th century visitor to the Kinkozan factory, saying that "the same glazed pots were decorated in two styles, the one being called Kyoto or Awata ware, and the other Satsuma". Please also notice that the authenticity of many of the more important marks below are uncertain. Jan-Erik Nilsson Introductory text written by and together with several expert members of the Gotheborg Discussion Board

Thank you John,

As i have said I also have a similar item with a japanese back mark to your lidded vase, so I am always interested to learn if it is actually Japanese. I have accepted it is not and it is Chinese of the kind of Royal Satsuma they make or made in the late 20th Century. There are similarities to some of the older and most rare Japanese satsuma in the design and colour of the chinese royal satsuma. 

You can also Check Chinese Satsuma on Gothenborg go to

Gothenborg

Chinese - 'later chinese' - Satsuma- It has a small selection of Royal satsuma

https://www.gotheborg.com/marks/20thcenturychina.shtml#royalsats

Chinese Royal Satuma

https://www.google.com/search?q=chinese+royal+satsuma&rlz=1C1FHFK_enIE955IE955&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqqvK9yuXxAhXIh1wKHSCJDrkQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1245&bih=647

Identifying Satsumsa

Hello, Short Dong 

you need to study more the Japanese have been painting Chinese marks on pieces sense Ming period. If you would have read the site I posted you would have found the Chinese royal satsumas marks along with how to tell the age if you think they would have put that much gold and that heavily done in 1980 at over $300, oz. I put a pin stripe on a plane in real gold in late 70s back in my painting days that cost over 5 grand and it was a small strip. That why it so important to look at how gold is put on. In 1834 Meissen developed the liquid gold formula and patient it Japanese got a hold on it in 1900 that why after that you see more flatter looking smoother gold on there pieces China got ahold on formula when Japan occupied China in 1937 made porcelain under Japanese rule,.and under master porcelain maker of Japan only. John 

Posted by: @john-steward

Hello, Short Dong 

you need to study more the Japanese have been painting Chinese marks on pieces sense Ming period. If you would have read the site I posted you would have found the Chinese royal satsumas marks along with how to tell the age if you think they would have put that much gold and that heavily done in 1980 at over $300, oz. I put a pin stripe on a plane in real gold in late 70s back in my painting days that cost over 5 grand and it was a small strip. That why it so important to look at how gold is put on. In 1834 Meissen developed the liquid gold formula and patient it Japanese got a hold on it in 1900 that why after that you see more flatter looking smoother gold on there pieces China got ahold on formula when Japan occupied China in 1937 made porcelain under Japanese rule,.and under master porcelain maker of Japan only. John 

Hi John

So you are an artist that is interesting to learn, yes of course there is much to learn, and i was learning the Japanese learned the skill of liquid powder from the europeans and only began using it in the 20th century. Thank you and I appreciate your knowledge on this. 

However I am not sure the item i have that i think is chinese royal satsuma ( irrespective of what it is) contains any real gold. Have you had your lidded vase tested to see if it is real gold? Certainly if they had real gold it would change my opinion of them. However i think thye just copied the style of the older satsuma which used a less than smooth applicaton of gold as indeed they did not have the european method at that time. However the japanese has other techniques and were very skilled in gold leaf and using gold in other ways.

Hello, Short Dong 

all gold on porcelain was real here a simple test VINEGAR TEST This test simply requires that a few drops of vinegar be applied to the metal, hopefully in an inconspicuous place. If the metal is real gold there will be no change. If the metal is fake gold it will change color.  John 

Posted by: @imperialfinegems

@short-dong,

Hi Dave and others,

Some really nice pieces being posted here.

I only have one kinkozan piece. A gourd vase in the Chinese sang-de-boeue style. Circa 1885-1900.

Mark

That is a fascinating vase, the backmark is it Kinkozan Tsukuru (kinkozan V (VII))  rather than Kinkozan Sobei as i cannot tell one from the other as they are almost identical and they have so many variations of thei signature backmark. I am thinking Kinkozan Sobei (kinkozan iv(VI)) because Sobei was the first in the long line of the Kinkozan to start exporting to America and he had a wild imagination for what western taste appreciated, and i have seen other Sobei vases using Serpents in this moriage raised fashion. 

I am guessing that night make it more prestigious.

It was under management of Kinkōzan VII that the Kinkozan factory became one of the largest producers and exporters of Satsuma ware and some of it was of the highest quality possible.

In 1896 he established with Shofu Kajo (1870-1928), the Kyoto City Ceramic Research Center  to research and innovate new production techniques and set up a trainingschool where many students later became famous for their ceramic works.

For his quality work Kinkozan factory was working with the best artist in this time. Among them were Gassan, Fuzan, Ituzan, Kozan, Seizan, Sozan and many others. Suwa Sozan, a potter who worked as artistic director for Kinkozan from 1900-1907 was maybe the best of them, he created true masterpeaces for Kinkozan, but did the same for Yasuda and for his own studio what he started in 1907.

So I guess any of those famous artists could have made this vase. 

Best Backmark PDF on Japanese Satsuma backmarks

https://doccdn.simplesite.com/d/18/36/282600881017468440/6c93a470-36cb-4c0a-a36e-5865184c08cc/SatsumaMARKS-UPDATE-APRIL21.pdf

THE LINK IS NOT WORKING BUT GO TO THIS SITE AND THERE IS A pdf 3/4 OF THE WAY DOWN. It is a must have backmark catalogue. 

https://www.satsuma-database.nl/442181269

Just for fun i recently won this at a local auction.

It is an 1884 or later Royal Worcester Serpent Ewer.  

Thank you Dave. Very much appreciate your additional information.

Mark