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Just something helpful for beginners, like me, that I have noticed. Genuine antique plates, at least the Japanese ones, are often not round. The modern replicas are perfectly round. (Unless its an extremely detailed fake, I suppose). Two examples below..hopefully you can see it from the pics. They are not even close to being symmetrical. Almost comically so, if viewed from certain angles. Just an observation ?
take it with a grain of salt
Hi there,
thanks for the tip! I’ve just bought this Japanese(?) Imari plate and it’s all askew! I thought perhaps it was late 19th century? The shape gave me a bit of confidence in thinking it was unlikely to be modern. I paid very little for it.
Nic
Hi,
Looks good to me, late 19th, early 20th, perhaps?
take it with a grain of salt
Yes, probably is early 20th century. It is Japanese, yes? I’m finding the differentiation between Chinese and Japanese Imari quite difficult. Just when I think I’ve got it sussed I find an exception to the rule! Some are quite obviously one or the other, but some seem to sit in this place in the middle and are quite similar. Have you got any tips on this?
Thanks very much
Nic
Hi Nic,
Actually, I am an amateur at this, you probably know more than I do. I have particularly little experience with Chinese porcelain. But there are experts on this site who will give you a proper response to your question, if they chance upon this thread.
Best, Todd
take it with a grain of salt
Hi Todd,
I doubt very much that you know less than I do! ?
Nic
This is an interesting thread. Warping was also a problem in Chinese porcelain but as far as I know only until the end of the Ming dynasty. After that I haven't seen larger irregularities. Could it be that the Chinese discarded items that came out of the kiln deformed while the Japanese still used them? I personally like warped items and have a Ming bowl that is quite askew.
Birgit
Nic, Haha, ok maybe not. But I have only been taking it seriously for about 18 months, and the amount of things to learn seem endless. So, definitely a beginner here.
Hi Birgit, That is a nice bowl. I don’t own anything like that. Perhaps I will buy one some day just to have a Ming piece. I have never even held one in my hands. I wasn’t aware of that difference between Chinese and Japanese, I was only aware through 1st hand knowledge that many of the Japanese pieces are warped. It would follow then, that this would be a strong argument to Nic’s piece being Japanese...Although maybe it is obviously Japanese, I don’t know. It looks Japanese to me. There is a Japanese philosophy of sorts, wabi-sabi, which embraces...even highlights imperfections, as beautiful. Maybe that is involved somehow.
.
take it with a grain of salt
Nic's plate has that typical blue ring all along the inside of the footrim that you (as far as I know) only see on japanese porcelain.
I should add that the absence of it doesn't mean that it can't be Japanese :p
~ Decorative Arts, Antiques and Accessories, at Mollari's ~ www.mollaris.com
Thanks for that Michael, I did wonder about the line on their side of the foot and whether it was a Japanese trait. This is why I’ve been buying at the cheaper end of the market, so that I can hold the items and study them up close. Museums are great in order to get an idea of form and colour, but from years of collecting Welsh pottery I have learned that you really do need to handle items so that you can start to get a feel for them. I fancy my plate is quite thickly potted, and I think that Chinese pieces tend to be finer? I have just purchased a couple of Chinese plates but they haven’t arrived yet. It will be interesting to compare them with this plate.
Nic
That bowl is great Shinigami! I have pottery bowls (not Chinese) that are shaped like that. Personally, I think it adds something to their story. Beautiful!
Nic
Dear Nic and Birgit:
Since my collection consists only of Qing items, I cannot comment on earlier periods. However, I have, as Birgit mentions, not encountered any warped Qing plates and I have a lot of them. Indeed, some of them are almost perfect. This may have been due to excellent quality control at Chinese manufacturing sites. We discussed Carl Faberge (the Imperial jeweler at the Russian Court) in another thread. He was a real perfectionist. According to reports he would inspect all items produced at the St. Petersburg workshops and take a hammer to those he considered substandard. However, considering the prices Faberge pieces bring today, even those less than perfect items would be worth a great deal if Faberge had not smashed them into smithereens.
I agree with Nic though that plates are an excellent way to start a collection. Peter presents more plates on bidamount.com than virtually all other items combined. Many of these plates are quite beautiful and go back as far as the Kangxi period and include Ming and earlier plates. I've been surprised at the relatively low prices some truly exquisite plates achieve at eBay auctions. I think this is because the selection is so large and that, in turn, is probably related to the fact that these plates must originate from dinner services containing dozens of plates. Another nice point about plates is that from a decorative point of view one gets a lot of bang for the buck. Small bowls and teapots often cost over a thousand dollars and have much less impact than similarly decorated plates from the same period.
Regards,
Errol
Hi Erroll,
I’ve noticed that plates are, often, significantly cheaper than other wares. As you say, it’s probably because so many sets were produced for export. But my own experience is that they’re not as easy to display. I find that plates take up much more room on a shelf, although they do create a fabulous effect. If space is an issue, one can always purchase small plates/saucers instead of chargers or dinner plates?
I’ve just bought my first couple of antique Chinese porcelain plates and cannot wait for them to arrive! I only hope they’re OK because I’ve got a terrible habit of going rogue and bidding on items not included in Peter’s newsletter! I do make sure I don’t spend more than I think I can get back if I resold them as purely decorative or repro. It’s not a habit I would endorse as it is full of pitfalls, but it is a lot of fun! I’m also very realistic about it and I don’t kid myself for one minute that I have found that 1 Ming bowl that everyone else on eBay has missed!
The main reason for going rogue is that there is usually a lot of competition for items that appear in the newsletter. Thankfully, there are usually some lovely pieces at reasonable prices in the Buy it Now listing, so at least one knows exactly what one is getting and how much one is paying.
Nic
Dear all,
warped ceramics are commonly seen both in Chinese and Japanese ceramic fields.
It is true that during Qing they are less common and especially less warped due to the refinement of technologies.
It must be said that for the Japanese the imperfections were not seen as defect. The Japanese do appreciate those imperfection, they even have a special word for that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi
During Ming, the production of a special type of ware, the ko-sometsuke, meant for the Japanese market, were purposely less cared to accomplish Japanese taste.
As for the value of dishes compared to bowls and vases, I heard that the Chinese has a say which sounds more or less like this:
Standing up (the vases) is better than sitting (the bowls) which in turn is better than lying down (the dishes).
Giovanni
Thanks for all the extra information Giovanni!
“As for the value of dishes compared to bowls and vases, I heard that the Chinese has a say which sounds more or less like this:
Standing up (the vases) is better than sitting (the bowls) which in turn is better than lying down (the dishes).”
That’s excellent! Perfectly sums it up!
Nic
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