Interessting results ...looks like the Market is as Strong as ever.

have a nice Weekend

Martin

@imperialfinegems WOW! $10,000 USD ?!?!?

So, let me stir the pot.....it's hongmu, not zitan.

If you can zoom in on the Christie's example, you can see it is composed of three vertical panels joined together.  The example sold on Ebay is one panel as can be seen by the ovoid wood grain that spans the whole panel.  Zitan is not a large tree, so a span of 10" is about the max for a zitan plank.

Plus, the patina on the zitan panel is shiney black caused the the drying of the red resin/dye naturally found in the wood. Hongmu also turns black, but more dull....in fact, the shiney parts of the hongmu panel are where the black patina has worn off.

Finally, the pores of zitan caused by the braided grain are visible in the Christie's example, but not in the Ebay example. Yes, different quality and cut of wood might account for this, but not the other points I've made.

The other pieces look good, and I especially like the hat stand. I am surprised that a single hat stand would achieve $6,000+ unless the artist is one of the great Qianjiang masters.

The fahua Ming tile is a beautiful, but the scales look large criss cross design, rather than rounded fish scales. I don't buy tiles, so maybe that's typical.

Hi greeno107,

Interesting observation on the plaque. 

I must admit when I first looked at it I also thought it was hongmu. I know you have a lot of experience with woods. Much more than myself. 

Yes the bitong was a good sale. I have seen it before but I can't remember exactly where or when. It could have been here. From memory it was a known artist/style from the Republic period.

Mark 

Hello,

@greeno107

Zitan is a member of the sandal wood family.  Pterocarpus santalinus It is worth reading the wikipedia link re the tree size and the differences in grain depending on the soils the tree grows on. Perhaps now days trees 15m tall and 1.5m wide are very rare but not so much in the past. It has always been a rare and expensive timber due to it's slow growth and it is very picky where it will grow. It is now virtually no existent in China in old growth but can be found in South India in a very narrow band in the Ghats mountains it is highly protected. 

Michael 

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterocarpus_santalinus

https://www.wood-database.com/zitan/

@brettm I confess that I am not intimately familiar with the taxonomy of all the species of wood used in classical Chinese furniture. I do understand that there are numerouse species within the genus pterocarpus (zitan), and from my readings, the species used in imperial furniture were near extinction by the time of Qianlong, who set aside imperial quality stock for future imperial family use. So, a large specimen would have to date to the Ming, which the panel does not.

What is your source that states early zitan trees grew to a width/diameter of 1.5 meters (6 feet wide)? I have never heard that.

How do you explain the Christie's piece having three joined panels? Is it inferior to the Ebay example?

I will check past sales on tables to see if there are any single plank tables that support your theory that old zitan planks can achieve larger sizes than about 10" wide. Would you do the same?

Aside from the single panel, there is the matter of the quality of the wood grain.

The twisting of the grain in the imperial stock wood that emmulates rhino horn, which would have been used on this dragon panel (if zitan) and period, would be unmistakable. The Ebay panel lacks this grain.

I have some photos of a zitan table I sold of imperial stock wood, and I currently have a very unusual 18/19th c. Zitan tea tray table that is not imperial, so we can compare some variations in grain.

I'll need some time to run some errands, so perhaps I can post later today.

Cheers!

@greeno107  i dont think its zitan its also not imperial iam also not shure about the dating this could very well be early 20th century lets see if Peter mention this in his next video.

This is a zitan septre I am looking at buying. It's dated to the mid 20th century. 

Mark 

Soory guys but i have to stress this Zitan Dragon Panel a little bit more i migth even break it  i am afraid

1. @greeno107 is rigth this not beeing zitan but Hongmu 

2. its Late 19century 

Here are 2 close up pictures of Real Zitan 18.cent Dragon Panels and one painted but dated to the 18 century. Sold by Sothebys, look at how the clouds are designed they al have a round centered kind of blob much like a Violins snail. , (a well carved Snail  on a violin is the signature of Master Violinmaker.)

Here are the pictures 

to Compare a closeup from the Ebay Panel

3. The Dragons scales on the Ebay Panel are shattery iregular and not smooth. You can see traces of the Cutting knife

Again Pictures close ups from a Sothebys sold 18. cent panel compare to the one sold at Ebay.

Also the wood on the Sothebys one has pores like Zitan does ..no pores at the Ebay Panel 

At the Left the Ebay Panel ..at the Rigth The Sothebys Zitan 18 cent Panel

4. The Provinece.

As earlier mentioned the Panel whas sold online last summer for 2200 Dollars here in Switzerland .

    The Swiss seller gets his stuff from Auctionhauses they either Rejected Items or unsold Items . He has a very bad reputation for

selling Fakes , or describes Items wrong or innacurate he sold over 18000 items since 2017 . Fake Warhols Braques Dalis Picassos you name it.

5 Whats it worth:  The Panel sold on Ebay if its Late 19cent and Hongmu maybe 800 Dollars. (BC its an Eye Catcher)

See link below for that Hongmu Wallscreen that sold at Christies in 2016. Price realised GBP 3,750

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-6033506

Maybee iam all wrong but i think i have a Point.

Best regards Martin

@brettm

Myself, I had my eye on this vase but sadly, I didn't score it in the end. It looks to me like a high quality 19th c. Kangxi revival vase and probably worth more than the $527 it went for. 

@greeno107

Hello, Bit busy with family matters today, but just quickly I have not reread them at this time but I am almost certain that the two links I provided give the growth patterns  and habits of Zitan. Admittedly the links I provided are more scientific than artistic but when it comes to timber you need to do the science first. Qiuckly Zitan and Hongmu are botanically closely related they are both from the order Fabales and the family Fabaceae and depending from which part of the tree and how the timber was originally cut after felling they can be very difficult to tell apart. There is a scientific way to distinguish involving weighing two samples that have both been dried to 12% moisture content. Sorry can't address your other points at this time, but I am sure the interesting debate will continue.

Cheers

Michael       

@imperialfinegems The scepter looks very nice, and I hope you have the chance to physically inspect and/or buy it at a reasonable price. Perhaps I'm being too suspicious, but these objects are being reproduced very convincingly, and a few things concern me about this one.

First, I do see interesting grain, but the copy cats know this, too, and look for burly rosewood or teak that they dye black or darken with stain. The wood of zitan is dark red, not black, and the black color formes like lacquer from the red resin that dries shiny black. It should not appear like black colored wood....it should look more like someone put black lacquer on the wood.

The dullness of the color of the inlaid stones is worrisome. Bad lighting, or did they use earthy colored stones?

The design of mandarin ducks and pair of fish seem to be suitable as wedding gifts. Is this a design suitable for a scepter with Buddhist significance given when you pass your  governmenatl exams?

Finally, while the back of the scepter looks like nice zitan wood, but the overall form of the ruyi is not very delicate...it looks slightly square. This may be acceptable for the period...I dont know for certain, but it is an observation worth double checking with other ruyi of the same period.

Speaking of which....what is the pressumed dating?

Okay... here is the zitan table I have since sold. Pardon my lack of fashion.... years of going to work in a suit has taken it's toll on me, and if possible, I prefer the comfort of unassuming second hand clothing. 😎 

So, as far as zitan identification goes, the important things to note are quality of design, grain, and color, but best to test the wood if possible with isopropyl alcohol.

Zitan has always been a rare, and it is my understanding that prior to the 19th c, it was reserved for only imperial household use, so carving should be of the highest level of quality, rounded edges, deep, stunning design.

The grain of zitan is distinct and described as braided. I'm including several photos that show different variations of the grain. All of these variations occured in this one table- that should be expected unless the object is small. Zitan is rarely found (if ever) in large pieces, so while the artisan will try to match the grain, variations in grain should be present.

Finally, the color color of zitan wood is dark red. The wood was used as medice and for red dye. As the wood naturally dries over time, the dye rises to the surface od the wood and dries black (like blood). The surface of the zitan becomes naturally lacquered, so the underlying grain will become less visible, especially pores, unless it is periodically cleaned.

The simple test of taking a cotton swab dipped in isopropyl alcohol, then rubbing it on the black area of the wood, will turn red from the dye if zitan. Wood like hongmu will turn the swab brown, or if its fake, the swab will turn black.

Here is the unusual tea tray and stand that I just bought two weeks ago. I bought it thinking it was hongmu (I only paid $275, so I didn't examine it too closely), but now believe it is zitan, as least some of it. To be honest, I've been a bit busy to pick up isopropyl alcohol to test it, but its worth discussing anyway, and if it fails the swab test, I'll eat my words. 😋 

So, I've taken photos in ambiant light, which shows zitan in its familiar black color, and in bright sunlight, which shows the the actaul red wood color.  The black lacquer on this piece is not very thick, perhaps because the table is a late Qing example, or was preciously cleaned.

Notice the grain is much straighter than the previous altar table. I believe this is due to being a different species of zitan, not the spieces used for imperial quality which essentially went extinct for n the 18th c. , but another species still suitable for use in the late 19th c.

The grain still has a twisted pattern, and you can see in this photo that the red dye, that seems to be coming up from the grain is drying black.

Still, as I was discussing with Michael, I'm not aware that zitan is found in planks much wider than 10", so that presents a problem with this tea tray table. What I had thought was two planks joined to form each shelf and the tray, looks now to be a single plank.

Perhaps in the late Qing, the newly discovered alternative species of zitan grew large enough to produce wider planks, or this table/tray is not zitan (or at least not 100% zitan).

What I can tell you is that the wood exhibits all the qualities of zitan, but since I have not done the swab test, I still could be wrong- such is life. 

@greeno107  I love the panel on the table with the deer. Curious to know if you sold the table privately or through auction and if so which house? Also, would you, Mark, and Michael be willing to participate in a group ZOOM meeting to discuss more details about identifying and assessing Chinese wood objects?  John

@johnshoe The table was sold through Lark Mason and with premium brought $100,000 or so with the premium.

I am happy to help anyway I can through the forum, or privately, but I can't commit to Zoom - sorry.

But, I have an idea that I will post about soon. If it works, it will be something that I feel will change how collectors learn forever! (que in dramatic music!)

Da-dun-DAAAA!