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We're all here to learn, explore and share our experiences collecting Asian things. I propose we post here mistakes we learned from while building a collection. That way we can add to the knowledge base here in an organic way.
Thanks for sharing!
Welcome to Bidamount Boot Camp!!
Didn't know nippon was being faked. Bought a coffee set with this mark. It looks like an hour glass but should be a M.
We've had some good threads on here in this vein in the past but I'm always up for hearing more stories.
From www.realorrepro.com aka ruby lane.
During the late 80's to early 90's Japanese porcelain/other was very popular and hence being copied by the Chinese.
Mark
@imperialfinegems Good to know. I'm directional challenged so I'll have to remember to check the wreath too. Fakes do make collecting harder don't they!
When I first started collecting porcelain I purchased a famille canton vase with porcelain pedestal. I thought it was old.
I paid a lot for it but it's new! It has a enamel red seal and hard black outlines of the figural cartouches! All signs of new stuff. When I get home I'll post photos of it!
Just decorative for 100 years! Collecting is a long haul thing sometimes! Patience. 😆
Side by side of fake vs real
Didn’t know the realorrepro site before. Astonishing to see what kind of stuff people collect.
Unfortunately I can’t contribute to the thread. Though I bought several fakes I found it so embarrassing later that I didn’t keep them and have even deleted the pictures from my files.
Birgit
I too have bought several fakes. One I remember most clearly was a "wanli" plate, quite convincingly painted to an absolute novice but I was never completely sure, as I picked it up rather cheaply at an auction. So I kept it in a drawer and took it out to reassess from time to time. After about 4 or 5 years of this, I noticed the reign mark was upside down in relation to the painting! 🤣
I sold it as a modern piece, took a small loss and put it down to experience. I can see now that there was lots of things wrong with it from an age perspective.😊
There not a collector out there that has not bought a fake. How many of you watch Peter last video on fakes it will make you wonder who can you trust to buy from when major auctions houses are being dope. Me personally If your not buying what you love as a collector and want in your collection your just falling into the forgery lap. John
Hey Angela. I echo what others have said. My general advice is to familiarize yourself in whatever niche you're collecting, be it through books, or online museum collections, so you can get a "feel" for what is genuine or high quality. I also add not to trust poor photos for listings, lest you find yourself with a cabinet full of unrealized chance pieces. Usually, poor photos are intentionally bad so you can't see details.
I've been sharing some of my mistakes and also observations of fakes in the forum, but I'll link to some of those posts here for completion:
- https://bidamount.com/the-bidamount-asian-art-forum/help-identify-this/royal-arms-of-england-teacup-and-saucer#post-62167
- https://bidamount.com/the-bidamount-asian-art-forum/help-identify-this/18th-c-platter#post-60582
- https://bidamount.com/the-bidamount-asian-art-forum/help-identify-this/18th-c-platter#post-60582
I'll end with this other observation. Don't trust solely the back and foot rims of pieces. Try to look at the decoration first before the back. Take these examples.
Actual Listings + Observations
All three are modern copies. Maybe the Famille Verte dish is the easiest based on the front decoration, but the backs of each looked convincing to me, with the handwritten marks, slight orangepeel, and the added stickers, and the Nordic Antiques sticker (a reputable dealer often featured by Peter)! I only knew because they were on eBay from a seller based in Canada, but everything ships from China, according to their reviews. But what would you think if you saw just one of these pieces in an antique shop, or a local estate sale?
A link to Peter's little video confirming they're fakes (he also points out that the lack of detail shots is intentional):
I've saved sellers like this one so I can keep up to date on the latest techniques being used to fake pieces. I thought using fake obscure stickers rather than just the big three auction houses was particularly malicious. Here are the listings:
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/325089879222?nma=true&si=YBUqlmcwGuKsyj%252BCUdU%252F%252Bt3VNJE%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/325100210787?nma=true&si=YBUqlmcwGuKsyj%252BCUdU%252F%252Bt3VNJE%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/325091925231?nma=true&si=YBUqlmcwGuKsyj%252BCUdU%252F%252Bt3VNJE%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
And some other examples with unique fake stickers:
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/325120212854?hash=item4bb2acbf76:g:8TgAAOSwW~FiQDjm
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/325113187767?hash=item4bb2418db7:g:3BEAAOSwKutiObvz
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/325116406808?hash=item4bb272ac18:g:lfEAAOSwKutiPIlz
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/325111906655?hash=item4bb22e015f:g:WTwAAOSwJX9iOJS3
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/325111818159?hash=item4bb22ca7af:g:a5UAAOSwF5ViOIP8
I hope it helps a little!
John
@shinigami Don't be embarrassed! All are on a journey to learn. As more authentic pieces pass into your hands the more quality items come your way!
I'm the fake buying queen! Spent thousands on fakes
@bartholin So true! My family has been in the antique business for over 3 generations. I spent weekends reading Kovels and Warmans price books starting in the 2nd grade. I had aspirations to collect Asian antiques back then!
I wanted to expand our family knowledge too. On the weekends with my grandparents I would be their eyes and legs at sales. I had a good eye plus memory for details on American makers. So I'd put all the good stuff on my grandparents pile at checkout tables. No one suspected a 7 year old was smart enough to grab REAL antiques.
Long story short I was drawn to Japanese lusterware because it was bright and shiny. Appealing to my kid tastes. Lol. My Grandma told me Japanese stuff was worthless money wise. So I had to leave a lot behind at sales.
My Mom always said to collect what you love because if it doesn't sell your going to be stuck with it! Truest words ever!
My early types of collecting mistakes were rather different than what is happening today. But the reason for those mistakes is exactly the same yesterday as it is for today’s collector. Lack of knowledge and experience in handling genuine pieces.
Back in 1981 when I first started collecting, the internet didn’t exist and sources for quality Chinese antiques were located thousands of miles away. What I found available was local antique dealers, traveling antique shows bringing in out of state dealers, and also visiting specialized dealers while vacationing.
Looking through a lot of the antique shops in this city with a population of several million, I found nothing that looked like the examples in the books that I had consulted on Chinese porcelain. After several years, I only came across only two businesses that had any inventory of decent looking Chinese antiques. One of these was located near me in one of those large group shops that rented out stalls for dealers with small inventories. She was an older lady who had relocated from LA to Texas to dispose of her remaining inventory. I would usually visit once a week and get to handle her inventory and she was happy to discuss the items with me. Eventually, I gained enough confidence to purchase items that struck my fancy. I am sure I became her best customer. My goal was to collect the best 18th century or earlier ceramic pieces that I could afford on my engineering salary. Looking back now, I would say she had probably been a ‘picker’ in the LA market and had brought mostly her second tier inventory to Texas for disposal since it wasn’t good enough to interest more reputable dealers. She did have an eye for what looked really good!
Eventually, I filled a display cabinet with ‘mark & period’ examples of Chinese porcelain or so I thought at the time. I had no idea that 19th & 20th century Chinese potters slapped those same marks on their wares (nor did she ever inform me of that little fact). Eventually, I had a visiting specialist dealer from New York appraise my collection. Only two items turned out to be 18th century examples. Like Birgit, I was so disappointed that I got rid of those other things as soon as possible. My lesson learned was to buy from from reputable dealers while educating my eye for genuine pieces. Only years later did I branch out to auctions and the internet.
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Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
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A free Asian art discussion board and Asian art message board for dealers and collectors of art and antiques from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and the rest of Asia. Linked to all of the BidAmount Asian art reference areas, with videos from plcombs Asian Art and Bidamount on YouTube. Sign up also for the weekly BidAmount newsletter and catalogs of active eBay listing of Chinese porcelain, bronze, jades, robes, and paintings.
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