That sounds interesting. I can't help with an answer, but if you don't find a book, there may be academic papers on the subject.

You may already have tried that, but if not,  it may be worth searching sites with journals or articles. There is a well -known one but I can't remember it exactly - jstor or something like that? Or maybe issu ? Libraries may be able to help, too.

You could send pictures to Peter through his identification assistant service and ask the historical question to him. He will let you know what information he has come across in his 40 plus years of dealing.

Thanks for your contributions.

I guess the problem is that I would need someone who is both an expert for Chinese art and for Chinese Secret Societies. 

And I am not sure anymore if such a person exists. 

It may be a bold prediction but I do not believe that any expert from even the major auction houses would have figured out the

deeper meaning of this painting.

Because even an expert needs a reason to do some more extensive research and in this case it is not easy to find 

(especially not during a quick valuation). 

In this painting it is all about symbols and the importance of colors. 

Basically it is quite an odd combination as it is a Qing painting in the style of Ming portrait paintings with figures from the Han Dynasty

and the intention to create a strong pro-Ming attitude. 

At first I did not think about it too much after I had purchased it but after a few years (yes it took quite some time) I was able to

decipher the codes (so to speak). 

And after I did I could not stop anymore and had spent quite some time on this matter. 

But it was very interesting and wortwhile. 

In the end I had summed up all arguments which make me believe that the painting can be attributed to the Hongmen and in my

opinion this is the only logical explanation for the style of this painting.

I have discovered a few books about Chinese Secret Societies but all of them focus on historical aspects and the political 

developments of these groups. 

I had also written to one of the authors and he admitted that he can not be helpful with my request. 

Well maybe it is even an unique painting.

On one hand this would be quite nice.

On the other hand this would also mean I will not be able to gain more knowledge about this topic. 

@sanguo You have an interesting situation and raise fascinating question: how do we solve certain mysteries if there is noone left who truly knows the answer to them? I have noticed that in the world of collecting and dealing antiques many people are not open to new discoveries - they only can accept what has already been proven without any doubt. I like how you are searching for truth. Keep going. As the saying goes, seek and you will find.  John

John, I hope it is OK to say that, personally, I think the reason for that is that most "new discoveries" are from people with little knowledge, who think they know better than those with years of study and experience.  There may be financial implications in establishing the authenticity of their find, which makes them cling to it harder. It is not only in the collecting world that this happens.

When these people and their new find come up against the "rigid establishment" - most of whom do know what they are talking about - they proceed to talk those experts down and accuse them of not being open to new discoveries. I agree there will be some experts who are rigid, just like there are novices who do sometimes make rare discoveries. However, educated, well-informed people tend to be able to think in and out of the box, they are open to new ideas, but if the idea is just not viable, then they have every right to say so. 

Clutching to the idea of something being rare and special, even if experts don't see it, is a phase most collectors /bargain hunters go through. I know I did. Most pass through it, sooner or later, but some stay in that world where their finds are special or unknown;  to me they are the ones not open to ideas and who are unwilling to learn.

Just to be clear, I am not talking about this painting, just adding some balance to John's comment. May we see the painting, Sanguo? I am intrigued and  would like to know more.

@julia I agree that imbalance can happen on the dreamer side of things as well. But there is no question that sometimes people get too rigid. Both extremes lead to problems. The key is to stay as balanced as possible with having solid knowledge and having an open mind. We all probably have a tendency toward one way more than the other. Historically I am more of a creative than I am a scientist, although I'm much more balanced than I used to be. We just have to be aware of what our tendency is so we can strengthen the weakness to achieve that balance as best we can. I have studied this in myself and it is amazing how the slightest imbalance can cause such big problems over time. Balancing on the razers edge is a tricky thing for sure, hence the tendency to fall to one side or the other. But there I go again, turning Asian antique collecting in my philosophical ramblings. I need to stop this and go make breakfast.... 😀 

Hello, Members 

There was a secret societies of women painters and artists in late Qing period I don’t know if this is what you are looking for. As you know all art works is to have hidden meaning ,John

Hi Sanguo,

You might find this link useful. Some of the figurative paintings sound similar to what you describe.

https://www.cinarc.org/Freemasons.html

We'd love to see an image of your painting, if you're willing to share. 

Shortly after I bought the painting and long before I had started my own research I had already contacted experts for Chinese paintings as I was simply curious.

First about the possible age (I felt it should be Qing but wanted to have it confirmed) and second about the weird style including the strange clothing.

Regarding the age the answers were very similar (18th/19th; 19th century) so I think dating it to the later Qing seems to be a safe bet.

But no one was able to shed some light on the style.

Therefore I do not believe it is of any use to go in this direction any further.

As I mentioned earlier I am collecting a certain topic and not a special type of ware.

This is the reason why I have developed  some decent identification skills even though it is only within my (very) limited area of interest.

As a result I am discovering new objects on a regular base which are not described properly and this also includes the major auction houses.

Some longer time ago I had purchased a Famille Verte figure from the Kangxi Period at Christie's as it was quite easy for me to figure out who is depicted there and it was a perfect fit for my collection.

Unlike the staff at Christie's who apparently had no idea and no interest to change it.

I even wrote a message to them and asked about their opinion but not even received a reply.

I think they could have achieved a much better price if they had put some more effort in the analysis of the figure.

Oh well I guess I do not need to complain. lol

Of course it can also go the exact other way: Good accurate description of a vase with an interesting scene and it sold for almost 10 k with an estimate of 2 - 3 k.

So it still depends on some luck but no expert knows everything so the opportunity arises to pick up a bargain every now and then.  

@John steward:

Honestly I am not quite sure what I should look for. But this sounds both interesting and promising.

Is there any literature out there about these kind of artists?

Or maybe a museum which has specialized in this subject?

I would disagree with your thesis though. Not every painting has a hidden meaning.

Many paintings are simply decorative. No need to analyze them with a magnifier. lol

But then there are those kind of paintings with a strong self-expression of the artist and one has to read heavily between the lines to recognize it.

@Craig:  

Thanks for the link. But I already know this site.

Unfortunately they only show prints based on sketches. There are no real paintings.

(mine is a gongbi painting)

I do not know, maybe I should change the type of approach and look for political paintings of the Qing Dynasty instead of objects of Secret Societies.

It appears like I am already through the entire web with my search for the latter. lol

Right now I am somewhat reorganizing my collection.

I am not quite sure but since it is about a popular topic maybe I will also create a website and put my collection on display.

This would take a lot of time and work though.

But for this reason  I do not really want to share pictures in public right now until I have made a final decision.

Sanguo reading your posts I think you may be the only expert on the art of secret societies. At the very least an expert here on this forum.

Ron

Hm.

Well...

This might be a sign from heaven.

To establish my own secret society. 

Hahaha 

Posted by: @sanguo

Hm.

Well...

This might be a sign from heaven.

To establish my own secret society. 

Hahaha 

Don’t tell any one, it won’t be a secret then.🤔

This painting in question, is it more Saturday night at the Lodge or RICO violators (racketeering)? If the latter, then mum's the word, shh. Seriously, just as there is a niche market for items from the estates of famous gangsters, generally folk not known for a tasteful aesthetic, you are the person in the position to know whether or not such a market exists. 

P.S. Thank you for providing some interesting things to look up, several Hongmen banquet paintings online, learned something new. Sharon