The form of the rim is different too.  

It is simply impossible to tell if your piece is of the artist by looking at the seal. Even if it was identical, which it is not, it still would not tell us anything definitive about the piece. Sometimes it is helpful to post a seal mark alone on a forum for help to identify the maker. But in this case you already know who the associated artist would be, so there is really not much any of us can offer without seeing the piece itself.  

@imperialfinegems thanks mark. But those two seal marks look like they are off the same piece. So 1 seal just they have probably been taken at different times. They are off the silver bronze goose stepping on frog piece. So a single seal not two different seals. Thats how i view that.

Regarding the differences with mine.  I agree its not an exact match- but the character structure and style are still very close. It could easily be a workshop variant or a different period of the same artisans output. Either way I have sent images of the piece to a few specialists in relation to having it validated either as his or from his circle or not. This piece is extremely rare in the fact it is a western themed subject with a japanese seal.  In my comparison research i could not find anything like it anywhere. I believe it is a

Shanemeiji period statement piece  probably saying  "hey look at what us japanese artisans can do. We can sculpt your heroes as well as you can"

Shane

@johnshoe thanks johnshoe. Appreciate the feedback.ive sent the seal images to a few specialists already to see if there is a consensus or at least a lead.

I fully understand its not identical but i do feel its close enough in character structure and metal work to warrant further checking.

I do get your point that the seal alone wont give full authorship but rather just part of the picture.

Shane

@shinigami thanks shinigama. As ive said in other replies the characters are close enough to warrant further investigation as with the metal work. I have sent the seal to a few specialists for further examination. 

Shane

@shano By the way how did you identify the seal mark? Do you have a good reference guide for seal marks of Japanese metal workers? I have a piece I have yet to identify so a guide could be useful.

@johnshoe well technically i havent identified the seal characters. Ive found through thorough research over the past week or so its possible to find what you need. Everything is on the internet except my bronze. How ever i fluked apon seiji kiyoshi seal purely by looking at every japanese bronze i could find. I knew my seal was a stroke out. However i did some measurements on it last night. So my seal is 8mm high.and its 5.5mm wide. The lower line below the seal is 50.5mm wide. The seal is set exactly 6mm above this line. Then from left edge of seal to left edge of subject is exectly 18mm. From right edge of seal to right edge of subject it is 18mm. The seal has been placed exactly in the centre rear of the piece. Only a fine artisan has the skills to place a seal with this preciseness. This seal has been placed with thought not just for the artisan but with absolute thought for the subject. It is meticuloulsy placed there for a reason. This is i believe made for a dignitry  or the only other plausible reason which is my main thought its a statement piece for the newely arrived west and its saying " look at us japanese we can do bronze art of your heroes as good if not better than yourselves" My research book has been my new mate AI wayne. But he needed to learn, be prodded and even poked to go in the right direction. It was 75% me and 25% AI Wayne.

Shane

Inventing new methods of authentication isn't typically part of the authentication process, not when you've skipped over all the other parts.

One thing to consider is that extreme precision in measurement is usually a red, not green, flag.

I hope your bronze lives up to its backstory. Please let us know, and share pictures when you're able. Good luck!

@craig cheers mate. So i beg to differ in regards to methods to authenticate certain objects and marks. AI is a tool that can be used as search mode comparison and research material and certain bits of data that represent your research. Sure it can and does make errors however these errors can be used to further its abilities to recognise and undertsand what you are trying to achieve.so its not a matter of inventing but more using something AI as an assistent tool to get to where you want to be in your resesrch. Everybody has differing thoughts on reproductions. I put this post because AI suggested it as an option. The funny thing is that not one person has actually really put any input into the seal apart from red flags  fake, etc. However the placement of the seal does not represent or red flag reproduction as you put it but more reflects the precision of an artisan and his pride of work. The way the seal is embedded the colour contrast the closeness of the characters to the seiji kiyoshi seal and the subject that it is on says its worth looking at in further detail and of course the lost wax the patina all suggest it is a special piece.

Thanks mate shane

I beg to differ with you my friend. 

Numerous members have pointed out the distinct differences in the strokes to yours and the original. Members here have reservations about this piece without the opportunity to view it in its entirety. 

Just to put in very clear... Your strokes are substantially different from the known examples and that is a major red flag from collectors and dealers who have been in the industry for many many years.

But like many have pointed out it needs to be taken into consideration with the mark and the whole piece. 

Even the experts you have chosen to send it to will also tell you exactly the same thing. I assume you are sending them pics of the whole thing and not just the mark.

This character is totally different from the known examples and warrants further investigation from a person who is completely literate in Japanese calligraphy. I won't commit either way but I have my own personal opinion. I am not a person who can read or speak Japanese and btw a number of leading dealers can't either. 

Any difference in the strokes, style and or manner of the seal suggest either a student ( unlikely) of the master or a outright fake. Or a completely different artist with a similar seal. 

Mark 

Posted by: @shano

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So i beg to differ in regards to methods to authenticate certain objects and marks.

Apologies, I wasn't referring to AI. That would be an entirely different conversation, but from what you said I think we'd agree!

I was referring to the notion that the seal all by itself  is enough for authentication. It isn't. As others have suggested, it's not even a good first step.

Posted by: @shano

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The funny thing is that not one person has actually really put any input into the seal apart from red flags  fake, etc.

Hey now kind sir, we've all given input about the seal. From the variation in the 月 part of 清, to Birgit noting the different rim shape. Now Mark has added visuals. We've all looked at it closely and given good input all around.

Historical context is hugely interesting and important. But discussing historical context, asking to agree it's historically significant, without knowing the age of the piece, and looking through a blindfold with a hole, feels the opposite.

The piece clearly means a lot to you. You've had it for many years. It doesn't sound like you plan to sell it, so why try learning more now? Don't go digging around in your partner's distant past unless you have good reason.

But digging further, there's bare metal on the bottom. With an XRF gun on this area (and a bit of research on period element ratios) you could place it with near certainty, assuming all else checks out.

@imperialfinegems hi thanks for your thoughts. I believe some are too quick to dismiss the seal because it doesnt conform to their expectations of whats catalogued and what they see on other works of an artisan. However the is a big difference between informed crutique and assuming expertise where there may be none especially when it comes to reading japanese characters.

On that note ive seen a few metions including yourself in regards to "brushstroke" style used to judge the seal. That in my opinion is fundamentally flawed. Brushstrokes are a product of fluid ink, paint on paper not on hardened bronze.cast seals such as this are created by carving or stamping into wax or clay then cast into metal.what your seeing in a seal like this is a shaped relief not a dynamic brushstroke. You cannot analyse the pressure speed or bristle drag of a brush from something made of metal.trying to do so is like trying to claim that you can read an artists wrist movement on a rubber stamp. 

Last night i stopped at the local sushi haunt. Two ladies at counter. I was with daughter who was on phone. I pulled up pick of seal and said can you read this they said no but let me get cook. This old lady must have been 75 or so. I said can you read this he said yes. I said whats it say she told me with no hesitation "kiyoshi" thank you dear i even bowed with respect. A japanese native read it. She said it reminded her of her grandfather. And that is good enough for me even though im waiting on specialists views.

Ive also used AI tools to analyse surface seal integration and casting quality in depth. These tools pick up structural, geometric and textural details that arent visible to the naked eye or easily visible to the naked eye and often dismissed. Im going to upload a rear picture of the bust to show the seal placement and a genersl idea of its centred position And clearly embedded and not an after thought but rather a part of a subject made with genuine skill.

Thanks 

Shane

@shano Come on man, just show the whole piece. Looks like a high quality object from what I'm seeing so far. Let's see that face.

Posted by: @shano

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On that note ive seen a few metions including yourself in regards to "brushstroke" style used to judge the seal. That in my opinion is fundamentally flawed.

As stated earlier, these are two different ways of writing the same character. 

It is not a question of an errant brushstroke.

It's a different form of the same character and would only be written this way intentionally. 

Why would a noted bronze master change a character in their name mid-way through their career? 

At this point in the conversation, I feel like suggesting "alien intervention" would be more acceptable than anything else.

I grow weary 😩, good luck pal. Looks more western than anything else, is it JFK or Clark Gable? Recall his most popular line.