Dear Birgit, you are absolutley right. It is just what I meant; if judging by the perfection of the glaze, they look like brand new copies.

Regards

Giovanni

@lotusblack 

Hi Brian - 

Attached images of some publications on these Imperial excavations and the wares unearthed ... 

Some of the above are out of print and therefore difficult to obtain. Others, such as the Palace Museum, Gugong, exhibition series in 2nd/3rd images are rather expensive ...

If you google ‘Purple Culture’ bookstore, a distributor base in Hong Kong, they have a some of the above ... 

Stuart 

@clayandbrush 

Dear Giovanni, 

My pleasure to answer, try to explain and help ... 

Somewhat relieved to hear you are feeling better. I sincerely hope it will not be to long before you are fully recovered ...🤞🤞

With warmest regards, 

Stuart 

Absolutely fascinating thread.  Thanks to all contributors.  I have thoroughly enjoyed reading and learning from all your comments. 😊 

Posted by: @clayandbrush

Dear Birgit, you are absolutley right. It is just what I meant; if judging by the perfection of the glaze, they look like brand new copies.

Regards

Giovanni

unfortunately in a month or so EBay and the like will be awash with brand new antique Ming bowls just like this one, remember the chicken cup a few years earlier. All of a sudden there were hundreds for sale.

These treasures are still out there hiding in plain sight.

 

Dear all, I just read this entire thread and I must say it was a fantastic learning experience! I thank everyone involved, you are awesome!
MB

@ming1449 @xin_fawis and all,

FWIW, I found a few more examples of these types of bowls with same foot rim characteristics from the The Ardebil shrine collection (Chinese porcelain collections in the Near East - The Ardebil shrine collection Vol II by T. Misugi). Even though the majority of pieces in this edition are in Black and white, it's nice to find examples with photos of the foot rims.

The second bowl pictured is a very close match to the bowl being auctioned at Sotheby's.

The bowls are listed as "Early 15th Century". The mark on the bottom is that of the Shah Abbas who had donated the entire collection to the shrine in 1611.

@lotusblack @kaolin 

Hi Brian, Kaolin and all -

Apologies, I forgot to include this publication from the PM, Gugong series, which provides a good overview of these Imperial reconstructed wares, mostly Ming examples, recovered the 1980‘s up to 2016 ... 

@kaolin has posted two good images of examples from the Ardebil Shrine, now housed in the National Museum of Tehran, for comparison purposes ... 

Stuart 

Bidding starts soon. Interesting how much this bowl will fetch. I have few questions of my interest, I am newbie but I am curious.

Guys in your opinion - very interesting how much possibly that small chip on a top rim can effect valuation price..?

I've been reading about Yongle blue & white porcelain and if few different sources on the internet they don't lie, there is just very few pieces marked as with Yongle mark, is it true that at Yongle period they pretty much never marked porcelain? 

And question of my interest - when it comes, to such expensive & rare porcelain objects as this bowl which is for sale now (if Yongle rarely marked porcelain), like an example of my interest -  let's say Xuande period - when selling 2 similar porcelain objects at auction house, let's say almost identical 2 objects. One porcelain object is marked and another one is not..Marked bowl will be more expensive then unmarked one? Or it just doesn't matter in real?

Thank you for a few lessons in advance :))

Kind regards

Audrius

Sorry guys, one more question: 

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4916588

So what is a deal with Sotheby's estimations 300-500k usd for similar bowl?

I don't get this even considering that similar bowl was auctioned back in 2007...

Audrius

@lucky 

Hi Audrius - 

In answer to your questions:- 

1, No, marked Yongle pieces are well known but examples are relatively rare. Only three marked blue/white pieces exist, the so called ‘pressed-hand cup’, all held in the Palace Museum, Beijing, third image ...

All other marked examples are found on monochrome wares, usually found in the central interior, second image of a stem bowl excavated from the Imperial kiln site in 2013/14, although a few very rare pieces are known marked in the cavetto, first image. Two exceptional rare white monochrome ewers are also know with finely incised decoration, the lotus scroll which surrounds the neck with four blooms each of which supports a roundel inscribed with an archaic character, the four together read ‘Yongle  nian zhi’ ...

2, This very much depends on rarity, condition and provenance, if any. There are far fewer authentic Yongle wares then Xuande so the former, generally, will fetched a higher price. But there are always exceptions ... 

3, I think Sotheby’s are been ‘conservative’ with the estimate to entice buyers to bid on this piece. As mentioned by Xin, although this bowl has great story regarding its discovery, it has no provenance, which can have importance to some bidders .... 

We will soon know ...

You may find the attached images of some help ...

Stuart 

@ming1449

Thank you for your time, and excellent answer! Really super informative answer. 

I think you did overlook few my questions (I am not trying to be rude or mean in anyway!) Would be highly appreciated if you could express your opinion on below (and other members) 

Does't mark or no mark reflects possible final sale price if 2 identical porcelains sold? (when I say identical, it's just an example)

How do you think, how much possibly can draw down final sale price that small chip which is on a top rim? I am just trying to understand what possible devaluation can cause such small chip..? If to talk percentage wise. I do understand that every potential buyer  - is different story when bidding and buying..And if EGO gets involved with couple of rich guys - chip doesn't make any sense in real :))) I hope you get my point what my question is.

Thank you for your very informative answer once again!

Kind regards

Audrius

@lucky  Yes, usually the highest prices are paid for pieces that are authentically marked and of the period, generally speaking. I'm sure we could find some exceptions to that, but it is usually how it goes. As for a small chip and how much it detracts from the value, pretty much the market will decide that once it goes up for sale. How much damage, where the damage is, if it detracts from the presentation of the piece, if it can be easily repaired, how rare the piece is, all of this factors in, so I'm afraid there is not a simple answer to your question. However, you can start to get a sense of how damage affects the value just by looking at many examples and seeing what they sell for. I have seen very nice items that have very significant damage sell for 10% of what they might bring in nice condition. Maybe a small chip could knock the price down 25%, more or less, but it depends. I think the main thing is to study and observe as much as possible and to realize there are no certainties. One of our forum members has a fantastic plate being auctioned this week, I think maybe tomorrow at Christies. It was broken in half at some point. You can see the line running across it. However, it is a very rare, very large mark and period charger, and is quite beautiful. I think there is an example of another one like it that sold not too long ago, without that damage, so we will be able to compare the results and see. My feeling is that because of it's rarity and beauty, it will exceed it's high estimate and do very well, in spite of the damage. But we shall see soon enough. On the other hand, if you took a run of the mill rose medallion late 19th C plate and cracked it in half then glued it back together, my guess is you'd probably have a hard time giving it away. 

@lucky 

Hi Audrius - 

@johnshoe has given a good response to your questions - mine as follows ... 

1, A marked example, for some, will always make a difference, but this is dependent on many factors, ie period, rarity, quality, painting style/subject, blue/glaze tones ext ...

2, Yes, the small chip will effect the price potential buyers are willing to pay, as the object is not ‘perfect condition’. Such damage use to effect prices markable, but not so much nowadays. However, how much such a defect has is, again, much dependent on the criteria given in the first answer - very rare, usually and desirable pieces may still bring significant prices at auction or when offered through a dealer ... 

Stuart 

I am watching some conspicuous consumption today.