@clayandbrush @xin_fawis 

Dear Giovanni, Xin and all - 

Just to clarify regarding the base characteristics of such bowls, and there later Xuande equivalents:- 

Attach images of a pair of bowls from the NPM, Taipei, the top is Yongle/bottom Xuande mark/period ... 

In all cases, such as this type which is known as ‘lien-tzu’, (lotus) or chicken-heart bowl, where the form/shape are the same there are a number of notable differences between Yongle and Xuande examples ... 

The Yongle pieces have a somewhat smaller foot that is higher, narrow and, when felt, slightly rounded. The outside of the base is visible convex and, overall proportionally, are always slightly smaller and lighter in weight ...

The Xuande pieces display a slightly wider and lower foot which is also completely filed flat. The outside of the base has a less obvious and smoother elevation and, size wise, they are slightly bigger and heavier in weight ... 

Yongle examples carry no reign marks, where as Xuande examples always do ... 

Regards, 

Stuart 

@lotusblack

Hi Brian,

Every time you learn something new. If you have never touched an early Ming imperial ware, you can't image how smooth the foot is done. Just like Stuart has already explained. Thanks Stuart @Ming1449 by the way. Great lesson for all of us. It's so classic Yongle ware, especially the conical shaped bottom, so-called chicken heart. This bowl is a typical chicken-heart bowl (they call this type of bowl in Chinese). Bigger but lighter than I expected. And the foot is really small. I had rare opportunity handling such objects due to different reasons. Mostly I learnt from excavated samples from Jingdezhen, from time to time also auction previews. I know Stuart has visited many auctions and big experience with Ming imperial wares. In this case he could tell us more, if he were there.

I have photos from another preview last year. A big Yongle bowl. Also a very interesting and new experience. Share with you here.

A week ago I got another opportunity to view an extremly rare piece privately. I visited a collector who didn't even know he has a Yongzheng falangcai vase at home for ten years. Oh my God. What a year! I don't know if this piece will come to the auction. We will see.

Greetings!

Xin

• I just want to say thanks to Xin, Stuart, and Mark because you guys give us so much of your time and experience. I hope one day I can return the same. Had it not been for you guys my bowl would have been a garden prop or my children’s cereal bowl. Because I had no clue. I’m not experienced as your great minds. What was once a lost disregard rare treasure has been found for the rest to enjoy and it’s only because of you guys that devote so much to us. Thank you for everything from the Crowe family.

Hi Xin, 

What a stunningly beautiful bowl you posted. Just love the overall look. Unfortunately I have never handled one. But I can dream...... AND IMAGINE!

Wow a yongzheng falangcai vase. Must have been a absolute delight to handle. 

Wasn't aware of the uniqueness of the footrim. Thank you Ming1499. 

Hi Brian, 

Really happy to have been able to help. It must be awesome to  have such a fantastic piece in your possession. Fantastic find.

Mark 

So I have a question about Yongle bowl. Just how they know it’s an Imperial bowl if it doesn’t have markings? Couldn’t the bowl been gifted. I was told a gifted item was not  the same as imperial. That only item used by the Royal family. I hear there is a debate on this subject with scholars.

Hi Brian,

Whilst I am by no means an expert on imperial porcelain I think the following is applicable. 

Generally speaking imperial wares are only made from the imperial kilns with the accredited masters at work. The only deviation to this theory is if a item is required quickly and the official kiln is unable to provide/produce it in the required time. Not withstanding all imperial standards would still be in place. Including overseers by order to inspect the wares to ensure they are fit for purchase. 

Of course some did get through the rigorous procedure only to be destroyed by the Qianlong emporer who was a connoisseur with porcelain and jades. I did read about this awhile ago in a published book on the role of the salt merchants and the imperial workshops but I would have to dig up the reference material to confirm. 

All imperial works are of the highest standards of quality. Any flawed items resulting in kiln errors would have been smashed by order!

Not sure if I agree with the thought that gifted wares by the imperial household are not by descend imperial. It's my understanding that any items held by the emporer or indeed ordered by said are imperial wares. So if the emporer decided to gift a piece (for whatever reason) the item is still in my opinion imperial wares by descent/gift. 

Perhaps Xin or Stuart would know much more than myself on this interesting aspect. 

Mark 

I don’t even want to ask about salt merchants this would confuse me even more. So how do they know the Yongle bowl is imperial is it solely because there are other copies. I’m still trying to understand why these imperial bowls are showing up in thrift stores and yard sales.

Hi guys,

for some reasons, I never did believed too much in such nice stories as "expensive accidental finds". God forbid, I am not saying that there isn't lucky people in world, which time to time find great finds.

I am saying, that for a simple mortal person  it is not possible to get into a Sothebys auction house and to get appraisal at half mil. You would be rejected as item with no provenance. 

I am sure that person, is in some way connected to Sothebys auction house or a person related to someone who is closely related to Sothebys auction house. I don't want to sound as conspiracy theory, but this is my personal opinion which obviously can be incorrect.

Kind regards

Audrius 

Posted by: @lotusblack

I don’t even want to ask about salt merchants this would confuse me even more. So how do they know the Yongle bowl is imperial is it solely because there are other copies. I’m still trying to understand why these imperial bowls are showing up in thrift stores and yard sales.

Dear Brian ... no great mystery here .

First when the Summer Palace whas looted during the second Opium War its estimated that it contained over 10 Million artworks of Emperial heritage, so that how items like this got to the West. A story every Chinese knows about .

Looting by the way is the Soldiers payment ...its whas widely accepted , even after the second World war Americans did send looted German items home in huge quantity.

So beiing maybee treasured by someone but left without a notice or clue about its Value and Importance Grandpas old dusty Bowl got a Bath and ended up on a foldup Table next to some Starwars merchandise and an old coke bottle from the fifties . The price tag of 35 dollars is a bit high, but its a nice bowl so lets try someone may like it .

and so it happend

best regards

Martin

@lotusblack,

A excellent book on the role of salt merchants during the Qing period. 

@xin_fawis 

Hi Xin - 

As with Mark, thank you for posting images of this beautiful bowl ...

A superb example of type, and the image clarity provides a object lesson for all to closely study the following:-

Overall composition and individual elements within this, painting style, cobalt tones, variations in shading techniques applied and the resulting ‘heap and piled’ effects caused by this during the firing process, overall shape/profile, footrim and base characteristics ...

Delighted you were given the opportunity to view/handle ...

Stuart 

@lotusblack - 

Hi Brian - 

Since the 1980’s extensive, and indeed on going, excavations have taken place in Jingdezhen in the area known to have produce Imperial ceramic wares for the Ming and Qing dynasties Courts, the Imperial kiln site ... 

These excavations, initially rather hastily done so more of a salvage exercise due to time restrictions for building modernisation, but since carried out on a scientific basis, have all been lead by leading ceramic and archeological specialists, thus enabling us to differentiate between the stratum levels and shards underneath within these ... 

These excavations have totally revolutionised our understanding of the Imperial wares produced for/during differing reign periods. This is especially true regarding early/mid Ming period objects, where numerous previously unknown shapes, designs, enamels, glazes and differing combinations of these have been unearthed and reconstructed ... 

All the above is, of cause, of tremendous importance in helping to clarify which objects can be clearly assigned to specific reigns and period ... 

As for this particular Yongle bowl, excavations from the Yongle stratum at the Imperial kiln site have unearthed shards with identical designs, cobalt/glaze tones and body characteristics - thus helping to identify this piece as a standard type produced during the Yongle period ... 

My apologies, a bit long-winded but I hope the above is of some help ... 

Stuart 

Dear Stuart,

Thank you very much for your instructive answer.

I haven’t seen before, and didn’t know, about the base of Yongle cups.

Imperial ware is so different from the common porcelain that we can usually handle. I think that I have already said that, when I visited the Percival David collection at the BM, I thought to myself that, if I could stumble on one of those gems at a flea market, I would pass it thinking that it is not a genuine piece.

Yongle ware is incredibly attractive. I have spent not less than 20 minutes staring at a “Monk’ cap” ewer at the Shanghai Museum: that fat, thick white is unmistakable, absolutely impressive.

Regards,

Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

I can't remember if these Ming bowls were in the Percival David collection or in the V&A but I took two pictures to remind me how flawless and perfect the bottoms of these bowls looked. The problem is that modern fakes often look the same, we can only jugde by the quality of the decoration.

Thanks for the information. Have they produced a book on the shards or video?