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Hi All,
The more I look at this plate the more I see two hands at work. The floral boarder seems quietly and tastefully drawn and painted. The butterflies seem a little heavy and flat in comparison. The center reminds me of a English 18th century cartoon poking fun at the newly middle class. " look at how many things I have, how big my furniture is , how many servants I have. Could of been done for a newly minted Oligarch. Might not be pretty but might be an important piece of social history.
Michael
I asked one of my expert friends in China. She told me it could be modern copy. ? ? ? So please interpret my comment carefully and don't buy it. Still my personal opinion.
www.wyssemaria-art.com
[email protected]
Dear Forum members,
If Xin's expert in China is correct, then it seems that my initial impression, and Tam's, was correct too. If this be the case, then the copying in the modern period of earlier enamel tones has become impressive.
I still believe there is room to think of the plate as being nineteenth century ware, however.
Whichever way, this is not an impressive piece. When compared with the Yongzheng period example earlier illustrated in this thread (previously offered for sale on eBay by qing-period, if I rightly remember), it lacks any comparable finesse.
Regards,
Alan
I nearly added, I bet Xin will come along and tell me I am wrong. ? ? ? ? ?
I still think it is awful!
Yes, I did. Now I'm learning something new. Thank you. Next time don't hesitate to add my name. ? ?
www.wyssemaria-art.com
[email protected]
What a great thread. ?
I am not sure myself , A very strange mix of colours for a start , when you learn to buy and sell antique paintings the one thing you learn is to take a look at the back , that's where the clues usually are , the back of this piece worries me far for than the front . Is the white ground slightly off?
Dear all,
may I say, with no offence intended to anyone (everybody can be mistaken, I am quite often and could be also here) that I am surprised by some of the opinions about this plate?
When I look at a piece, the first thing that catch my attention, like a flash, is the painting style. From that alone, I deduct good/no good. To me, all the rest, enamels, paste, and so on, are not considered at all if the painting style is not there.
When I saw this dish, I did not immediately classify it as a fake and two possibilities did come to my mind: European copy or new fake.
After that, considering what it could be my thoughts were the following.
I know nothing about European porcelain copying Chinese, like Samson, and so on. But on this plate, all the typical features of export Qianlong porcelain are represented, really all, and I think that perhaps modern Chinese copies are not so concentrated on what Europeans see on that type of ware. Besides that, the enamels are those of the 18th century.
The painting style looks at first glance childish as usually seen on modern Chinese fake, but here again, in my opinion, it is more pushing from the side of how European eyes see (or saw) the features of that Chinese export ware.
To resume, in my opinion I am not excluding completely that it cold be a modern Chinese fake, but chances are slim. Most probably it is an old European copy.
Giovanni
Dear Alan:
You have a wonderful memory! I did indeed get the plate I used to illustrate this thread from qing-period. He had two identical Yongzengh plates. I won one at an eBay auction fairly long ago and he then offered me the second one as a direct buy. The first one was not inexpensive and I resisted the temptation to buy the second one! It appeared at a later auction fairly recently and sold for a little less than I paid for the first one. I think that is the one you recall.
I'm delighted you like the plate - your opinion counts for a lot! Items like that remind me why I fell in love with Chinese porcelains so long ago. Only in your dear country have I found anything that gets even close to what the Chinese were doing three and four centuries ago. I have some Royal Worcester porcelains from the Flight-Barr-Barr period and I'm very fond of them. A pair of plates came with the incised mark "By Appointment to their Majesties." It took me a moment to realize that King George III and Queen Charlotte were the royal personages involved as grantors of a Royal warrant!
Kind regards,
Errol
Dear Giovanni:
I always enjoy your posts. They are down to earth and very practical. I totally agree. If a plate or any other item is ugly, and I think everyone on this forum agrees with that opinion regarding this particular plate, then it does not really matter how good the paste is or what period the item derives from. None of us would I think have this plate in our homes even if it were offered for $20! You yourself are ambivalent about it and think it is old but could be a European copy and Xin's friend in China thinks it might be a modern replica. Even Alan is uncertain. This has been a fascinating and very educational thread. However, the bottom line is that we'll never know!
Kind regards,
Errol
Dear Erroll,
thank you, you are very kind.
I forgot to say, in my previous post, that the Chinese friend of Xin may (I say "may", I do not actually know him) not be so aware of these European factories copying Chinese ware. If that is true, he only remain with one of the two possibilities, i.e. modern fake.
Giovanni
I think it is maybe the foot rim and shape that have steered people away from European copy , the European copies from the 19th century i.e Samson that i have ever seen have always had a very European look to the foot and glaze which this piece does not have , However I have seen this style in modern copies before .
This is really an interesting threat. I also think this is not a Chinese Qianlong plate. Not because of the painting, but because of the surface of the white glaze. It looks like the surface of water. I've never seen a Chinese plate with a glaze like that. Usually you have a very smooth glaze where you see that it's been turned . But here it almost seems that it has never been on a potter's wheel. You can see it very good on the back of the plate. Very strange !
Chris
it's a new copy of a qianlong style export. Surely. It's too bad to be a European copy
I have to add that the reverse of the dish is very much in the chinese style of the 18th century - the style of the foot, the colour of the exposed paste. It's a bad fake in my opinion
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