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While looking for Xin's sold item on Ebay, I found it replaced by another seller's article that worries me a bit. What do you think of this plate? In my opinion not Qianlong, maybe not even Chinese. Could it be 19th century European?
Birgit
Hello Birgit:
The plate uses some elements of the Qianlong period. However, I think the figures are rather poorly executed and the butterflies near the rim are not well done. The undersurface and foot look rather new and immaculate. I think you are probably correct that this is a type of European Chinoiserie of unknown age. I don't like it much at all.
Regards,
Errol
This is an interesting plate , because to me the shape and decoration looks chinese , especially the way the people are drawn, and the butterfly, but the colours are wrong for C18th (looking at the thumbnail I thought it was a Christmas scene with the bright red and green hats) and I agree the overall appearance is quite ugly. The base has clear orange peel effect and the way the foot is cut is kind of similar to (in imitation of ) C18th pieces. The shape of the plate looks chinese , to me , rather than European.
So I would guess this is maybe an early or mid C20th copy ? or perhaps even more recent.
tam
Qianlong definitly. The enamels has definitly the Yongzheng / Qianlong quality. This waving glaze happened also sometimes on this kind of wares.
I agree the painting is not good enough.
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I thought it was a Christmas plate, too, at first glance. ?
All that orange peel on the base is very strange - I have never seen that on a Qianlong plate before. It does look quite Chinese in the way Tam points out, but what makes me think it might be European is that it seems to have been painted with a lack of understanding. I mean, there are elements of what one might see in Chinese plate but no appreciation of what it means, even the Chinese people do not look Chinese.
Also look at the furniture there is a part missing on one of the chairs, the ends of the table do not match, the back of the furthest chair to the right-hand side is badly aligned to the leg of the table.
I don't know what it is but I am certain this isn't an 18th c Chinese plate. Interesting though!
I nearly added, I bet Xin will come along and tell me I am wrong. ? ? ? ? ?
I still think it is awful!
Me again, with a thought.
Could this plate have been made in China, but decorated, at least the central bit, in Europe?
Hi all:
It's interesting to learn Xin's opinion. I suppose the problem is when we hear the terms "Qianlong" or "Yongzengh" we all think that these designations are synonymous with excellent quality. I assume though that poor quality pieces were made during every reign and if this is indeed from either reign, the Emperor would have ordered it smashed if he had seen it. I was struck by the similarity of the somewhat subtle floral decoration near the rim to that on a plate in my collection (see below). However, the central part is very unusual. The Chinese figures and furniture look awful and the red color fights against the more subtle colors of the peripheral floral decoration. The orange peel effect in the foot is most peculiar too. Xin are you planning to put in a bid?
Regards,
Errol
What an interesting discussion. I tend to disagree with Xin here ? In my opinion the painting is somehow not Qianlong style, not even if done by an apprentice. My first thought was Samson or another European painter. Maybe the body was a real Chinese blank plate like Julia says.
Birgit
According to painting quality I agree with you all. I would not buy this kind of thing. So I'm not going to put a bid. Just not my favourite type.
I learned that porcelains from Yongzheng to Qianlong orange peel or wave pattern glaze happened sometimes. Late Qing period this happened very often. This depends on the quality of production at the time.
Body and shape are correct, typical export type, check. The style of the decoration is also correct. You can also find classical patterns of Qianlong export like the red chain of fleur-de-lis inside the plate. The most remarkable part is the enamels on the plate which still has the great quality of Yongzheng famille rose.
Also very typical in the scene the officials at the table are bigger than the servants standing nearby. Do you notice that?
You don’t have to believe me. Just my opinion. We are learning from each other here. ? ?
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Hello Everybody,
Maybe the center was painted by an amateur painter. I know in western ceramics you occasionally find fine marked porcelain plates marked by the top French or other European porcelain makers that have been obviously painted amateur's some gifted others not so. The producers of porcelain even supplied blanks some with decorated rims and a central handkerchief for the would be painter to use. Could this also have happened in China for some bored court official to fill some spare time ?
Cheers
Michael
Yes, Xin, I did - I thought they were children! Thanks for the explanation, as usual, very helpful.
I have seen Qianlong bowls with orange peel, but the only plate where I have seen this effect was a very badly glazed Japanese one.
Great thread, so good to learn from all of you. ?
My idea is this could be a piece from Jingdezhen copying Canton mandarin porcelain (Guangcai). ?
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Dear Forum members,
The enamel tones are generally consistent with the eighteenth century, though are equally so for the early nineteenth century. One could say the same for the way in which the faces of the figures are drawn, they are not exclusively eighteenth century either.
As for the 'orange peel' effect (a rather confusing description when applied, as here, to the undulating glaze surface most noticeable on the base of this plate, but better reserved, I think, for certain glaze characteristics of Ming period production), this characteristic can indeed be found occasionally on eighteenth century ware, as it also can on nineteenth and early twentieth century ware.
In short, I do not think that this plate is inevitably Qianlong; on balance, it could also be a nineteenth century product. My first impression coincided with Tam's, that it was either early or mid twentieth century, but on further reflection, I think the enamel tones are too close to the earlier period for that.
Alan
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