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Sorry, I should have provided one earlier. Good luck, please let us know what Peter says.
https://bidamount.com/chinese-antiques-identification-assistant-inquiry-service
Figure doesn't look as "new" knock off.
To compare with decent auction houses, it's not fair, as just very finest pieces are sold there (mainly). Many kilns, many different quality porcelain were produced.
I agree, which why the Shangri-la one is a perhaps better comparison. Finer hands, feet and faces can sometimes simply reflect a difference in quality rather than age. However, on the other hand, there is usually less concern over uthenticity and sometimes there is useful information.
@julia I was looking at the link you attached.
the figurine has very similar workmanship, the face is not very detailed and not as sharp as mine; is Shangri-la reliable? The base I can't tell, I think for the whole Jiaqing period, because they are often described that way but I'm not sure.
As 'lucky' says, sure it is not original but from a more popular furnace?
@julia Sorry but I did not understand what you mean by the last sentence, I am not very well versed in English.
On quality I usually always adopt a reasoning: if I were a forger I would try to align myself as much as possible with the items on the market and on the mid- to high-end ones.
@giliu forgers fake everything to trick inexperienced buyers. Yours was created by such forger. He most likely owned an original and produced a mold from it. That why your lacks the fine details. The giveaway on your piece is the clear glaze over the enamels this is not typical of antique originals. The mold was not perfect this is why the arm is messy. Ask why is the unfired side so dark but the fired side is lite do the enamels show strong color or look faded. Where are the vent holes? Are there finger marks on the inside cavity. But most important you must find a comparable from a reputable source in Asian art it is fake until it’s not.
@giliu Go to Bidamount homepage to the tan box that is headed Want to know more about an item you own, click on Identification Assistant and follow the steps.
Several sets of these figures were sold at the Ann and Gordon Getty auction for ridiculously high prices. Forgers pay attention to auction results and can fairly rapidly get new products into the marketplace. Also, these figures don’t take a lot of skill to recreate in large quantities.
@lotusblack Brian, with no disrespect in anyway- you see fakes everywhere and in every direction. Sometimes, feels that there are no real items anymore, no matter what & how.
@lucky I see more fakes than not yes we have stores in Denver that are warehouses full of fakes. Real authentic pieces pretty much stand out I find more authentic pieces offline. Are you saying you see more authentic items than fakes? I have been doing a lot of study on fakes more fakes are sold each year than authentic so I have adopted a rule it’s fake until it’s not.
@Giliu yes, Shangri-la are reliable. In this case my only concern is that the pieces they chose to use as positive comparisons (the ones in the Rijksmuseum) look better quality and are possibly earlier than the piece they are selling in the link I gave you. That doesn't mean they are wrong, I simply do not have the knowledge to make up my own mind from those photos. However, that item is the most like yours of all the ones I have seen today.
If you let me know what sentence you didn't understand I am happy to re-write it if you like. Sorry, I do know from experience how difficult it is trying to keep up with conversations in other languages, but sometimes it is easy to forget when you are using your most familiar language. 😊
@lotusblack Well Brian, in my eyes - sold item as authentic - is authentic unless proven as fake, not other way around. And personal opinion is personal opinion, we all have a right to have one and we have to respect that.
Person is saying that figurine was purchased @Catawiki as Qianlong/Jiaqing object. Would be interesting to see this LOT in real if possible? Would be interesting to see who is a seller and who did handled this LOT @Catawiki.
Even, considering that Catawiki experts miles away from being perfect, sale/purchase @Catawiki reduces changes that this figure is modern knock off, they do have expertise over there and I am not huge fan how sometimes they handle one or another situation, they do get paid good money I believe so, to get this right as much as possible. From my personal experience, if they do have even small doubts, object will be discarded as modern and not listed for sale at all.
Of course, there are more fakes these days instead of real objects for sale (that's why provenance matters when it comes to expensive items) but this doesn't means that everything is fake. It depends where you buy. And this figure, is not modern object. Probably will not stretch to Qianlong, but probably good enough to be Jiaqing. This is my personal opinion, and my knowledge is very little when comparing to "what's real knowledge is" so shouldn't be taken as for a fact here, this is my personal opinion.
Brian, my point is within this message: there is no reason to state your personal opinion as a firm 100% fact, and possibly to upset person with idea in a head, that purchased figurine is modern fake, God knows how much was paid for this figure. And possibly running around like headless chicken as figure was inspected at "auction house" and been reviewed "by the expert".
Peace. ✌
@lucky I bought a listed mark and period Kangxi bowl from Catawikki for a good sum. With providence it was a copy inspected by two majors. So this entire speech falls flat. As for giving an opinion it’s just that an opinion but everyone here has had to deal with the fact that something they purchased is not authentic so I say you buy because you like it. If it is authentic a major and expert can give an appraisal how much you pay doesn’t make it authentic now I am open to changing my opinion because the slip does look correct. But I own several figures from many periods this one has issues. If you have a comparison to share I am all for changing my view that what this forum is data that leads to the facts one way or another. I have given reasons I believe it is not correct to me. These are facts not opinions for a collector to own authentic pieces for less we must all pay tuition. Nothing personal.
@lotusblack Facts are supported by the strong evidence (records, as text, video,etc.), anything else online, it's just words, opinion or "air" to breathe freely without any sort charge. And anybody, online, can say or be "anyone" - wealthy person, influent collector, super knowledgable person. Who knows, right? You can post a picture or 2, of "what you have" or " who you are", but in real life, this changes nothing.
When it comes to "experts" 5 different experts, and possibly 5 different opinions, unless "it's" obvious. Sounds about right. And anyone is free to believe what they want to believe in.
Will you be kind enough to show that fake Kangxi lot at Catawiki which you are talking about? And if yes - who are those people which did authenticated your purchase as fake? Just out of curiosity..
Would be very interesting to see what did you purchased at Catawiki as a Kangxi fake.
Brian maybe it's real? I mean you purchase and Kangxi lot after all..? I mean genuine object.
Not to defend @lucky or the statuette but usually, even in other issues, if it was a fake you would be matched with other results online. Finding another very similar object would support the copy and mold thesis, uniqueness would not. The fake created as unique, needs more effort and frankly more profit; the figurine cost not even $200.
However I am learning and all these notions are very useful to me, especially when arguing.
As for Shangri, @julia in my opinion, from what little I understand and from the lots he puts on catawiki, he doesn't really seem knowledgeable.
On the fact that there are many forgeries, this is established, I leave this link:
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Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
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