Welcome to the forum, some of our members knowledgable about plaques will be along, the one with the musician has expressive faces. Nice frames too.

@jacb,

Firstly welcome to the forum.

I believe these are porcelain, not stone.

The second one is in the style of very famous Republic period artist and members of the 'eight friends of zushan'

However your plaque is not by said master. Its a attribute and often copied etc. 

I don't recognise the first one but the quality is lacking.

As too value these are difficult to price precisely. Some buyer's may pay more thinking the WD is real.

However these are worth imo around $300 USD each.

Mark 

Thank you for the welcome and the replies - much appreciated.

Need a few detailed pictures of calligraphy, too blurry to read.

Hi Yin,  Attaching a photo of partial inscription. Quality is not very good (taken by my elderly mother who is not so good with technology unfortunately.) Your feedback in appreciated. 

On that note, I will fill you in on what has happened. The two persons who visited her house and first showed interest in those two particular paintings have since returned, handed over cash and taken the paintings..

Background to what transpired: My mum had asked a friend if she knew any one who could appraise and/or buy from her/or sell for her, the old Asian antiques, vases, scrolls and even ivory that was acquired or given to them over the last 50-60 years. The lady friend brought over a man she knew and his associate. When they walked through the home, they became very interested in the two paintings (photos above), and a set of 3 paintings and 2 scrolls. The paintings were in fact not the particular items my mother wanted to sell. My brother and I grew up with these and certain other paintings that have sentimental value. It was really only the ivory, vases, little ornaments and scrolls she was interested in possibly selling.

Note: This was all related to me over the phone - our family all live/work in different countries. My mum asked my brother, and also me, for our thoughts, feelings and help - which is why I got on this forum. We know little about Asian art despite the family being there for 60+ years. We both said don't sell - You like them. You don't need the money. Sell what you wanted to, don't be pressured into anything else.

The two men respected her decision to not wanting to sell a set of 3 paintings (of old Singapore, by well known artist), but really wanted her to sell the Chinese paintings on porcelain (which I (mis) labelled "stone" on this initial thread). Then after leaving, the men proceeded to call my parents phone multiple times (approx 12 times?) over the next approx. 24hrs and then basically (I feel) harassed my mother to accept an offer. My father (who the paintings were given to decades ago) said No, he did not want to sell them for what was being offered. He also called them and said not to come over to the home the next day - as they had arranged with my mother. He wanted an extra day to think (They had asked friends at their church on the Sunday if anyone knew of an another appraiser, so they could get another opinion and/or some advice. Again, this is why I posted on this (and other) arts forum. I encouraged them to just take time to think, not be pressured. My mother even said to me, twice, she thinks they must be very special, and of and valuable as the men seemed to want them so badly.

Anyway - I was told via forum/responses that the musician painting - it could be Wang Dafan or in that style - and advised my parents of this, that there may be value, not to be coerced into selling. And, to get a fair price if they did decide to sell. They wanted to get someone else (in the country/where they live) to help - especially as my brother and I could not physically be there with them to help. (Father is mid 80's, mother in 70's) However my mum became flustered and spoke to them to say they could come over. My father in fact was not in the house when they came over. She is very polite and talked with one man, apparently about his church duties, and the other took off the back panels (from the scenery painting, not the musician one). She did ask them, could they promise it was not by this famous artist (WD), I was told, that they laughed and said they promise it was not. The final outcome was they then handed over a cash amount and took the two paintings. 

I feel they took advantage of her age, and the fact father was not present. Whether or not it is a Genuine Wang Da fan is almost beside the point. The amount they paid may have been fair ..if it is not a genuine WD.

I however doubt this. Especially as another man, via another forum/online post, emailed me and offered double what she was paid, and he based that simply on photos.... I am so upset how they came into her home and pressured her. The money is not the point, it can go to charity for all I care, it is the fact they didn't respect her, and give her time, allow her to get a second opinion. It must be of great value. In my view, they harassed her and that makes me angry.

Anyway, that is what has happened...  

It can't be changed? No receipt or anything was given to her either.

I am really interested in what you (and the forum here) think?

@jacb,

Hi Jac,

Sorry to read about your mother's experience with theses dealers.

I can assure you that the WD attribute is definitely not by this famous artist. It could be from his school/students etc etc.

The way that the calligraphy is done along with the facial features and the shading on the dress code are all wrong for genuine WD.

Wang Dafan was heavily copied when he was alive...more so after his death in 1961. Now with the resurgence and highly sought after republic period porcelain the price's are high.

A lot of dealers and auction houses cannot tell the difference between genuine or attribute. Some of the copies being made today are better than the masters.

They removed the backs for a reason. To try and determine if said were Republic period or later. Republic period porcelain was made using wood kiln. Later were gas fired.

I did by the way see your post on the other forum and rats response.

If you/other have any further items you are most welcome to post them here for a opinion.

Mark 

@jacb It sounds like a frustrating experience and I can see why you would be upset about it. The dealers sound a little sketchy. Regardless, I tend to agree with Mark's assessment of the plaques - I don't think it is likely they are high value items and so I doubt your family has lost out on that much from a financial standpoint. It would probably please you to learn that there are many people/dealers who dabble in Asian art who think they know more than they actually do. It is possible these dealers were that sort. 

Feel free to post pictures of the other items your family has and we can try to help evaluate them. Also for $12 you can send pictures to Peter for his assessment which can be very helpful. 

Genuine Wang Dafan porcelain plaques...please note the difference in the style of calligraphy. The detailed facial expressions and finally the subtle shading on the clothes etc.

Mark 

Thank you both so much for taking the time to reply and for sharing your expertise. It is much valued and appreciated, and really interesting to read all those points. I suppose, as you say - if a dealer is not so well versed, he may get very excited about something that is not actually the real deal. It is a relief to know my sweet mother, despite the pressure tactics (!), has not been cheated from a masterpiece. (It is hard to be so far away as they get older. Sorry for my long winded "essay" above - I was just upset for her. Now I am calm! Thank you).

Will post more photos of the various items over the coming days - again, appreciate insights and feedback from the forum. It is a wonderful resources. If there are items you think Peter would be best to consult on, I shall do that.

I guess one of the main questions to ask (I am unclear on this due to CITIES rules..) the ivory my mum has (which is all OLD... She has receipts from back in the day, from the antique shops etc) Can she sell these things? Is there even a market for ivory anymore? It was all bought in a time before people were more aware of conservation and animal trade. The artistry itself is beautiful, but there is stigma I guess with having ivory.. (It is not something I personally would want in my home, if I am honest.) But I do admire the handiwork and creativity.

Your thoughts and advice would, again, be much appreciated.

Ivory carving are difficult to sell because one cannot export them under any circumstances.

Which country are they located in?

Mark 

@jacb I'm sorry to hear of your circumstances.

Where does your mother live?  

In the USA, the elderly have some additional protections afforded to them with regards to hard pressure sales, which a lawyer may find was unlawful coercion.

I'm not a lawyer, but I understand some laws regarding coercion because as a banker, I held fiduciary responsibilities, so I need to follow a strict ethical guideline when dealing with a person or businesses financial matters.

Unfortunately, the buyers of your mother's plaque(s) likely do not have any fiduciary responsibility, but since she is a senior citizen, perhaps there is some manner recourse.

I would start with a written conversation that gets the buyers to acknowledge that they come to your mom's home and bought the palque... maybe a text message thanking them for the purchase for (whatever the amount), ask if they're happy with their purchase, and ask if they'd be interested in the paintings (even though you have no intention to sell).

Hopefully, they respond by text saying they are happy with the purchase... now, you'll have documentation of the transaction.

You can then follow up with a request to reverse the purchase citing that your mother was not of sound mind, was under stress to sell, and now has remorse for the sale, and ask that they return the plaque and you will compensate them for their time in addition to the sale amount.

If they refuse, then see a lawyer.  A letter from a lawyer would make most people concede to your hernest wishes.

Good luck!