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Hello all, this is a follow up of my previous post regarding these Yongzheng dishes. I spoke with Peter about these, and he brought up the following concerns as to why he doesn't think these are authentic. I did a bunch of research, and found several period examples that in my opinion should appease the conerns that were brought up by him.
Before I reach back out to Peter, I figured I would ask the community to see if there's anything I'm missing or other aspects of the pieces I should focus on to figure out if they are of the period? My apologies in advance for the length of this post!
Size & Miscellaneous - They measure 7.25'' in diameter, and have slightly different weights. Peter mentioned the sizes should match period examples, and the weights should vary slightly. (they vary by about 1 gram).
One thing that is concern to me is the way the peaches are shaded/decorated. Most of the Yongzheng peach examples I've seen have spots on them. I haven't researched that as much, but I did quickly find one example below with similar shading:
1) Yongzhen Peach Dish (same size diameter)
2) Similar Peach shading example (National Palace Museum)
Any feedback would be much appreciated!
Thanks!
Hi,
I have just read through the previous thread (link below) to refresh my memory. I see we all felt these bowls are "off" for numerous reasons. Now Peter has expressed a similar opinion.
I stand by what I said previously, including the part of us all having been there. I know this is hard to accept, but starting to collect Chinese art is unfortunately about making mistakes and learning from them.
You have probably learnt much from your research, but I would advise you to stop looking for similarities and work out the differences instead.
Best of luck,
Julia
it is not difficult to tell that the dishes are modern copies.
@julia thank you for the reply. You mentioned previously:
"There is a dainty quality to the comparisons that these bowls don't have. I find the yellow wrong as well, especially the large expanses of it on the undersides where it is quite overpowering the overall design. The tree doesn't look correct either.
The other thing is the base: it is like those on many copies, I bought one too once in a wucai style. I was inexperienced and didn't stop to think why no one was bidding (I did get it cheap!) nor did I notice till years later that the mark was upside down in relation to the decoration."
In regards to your concerns with the pieces:
- Dainty Quality - Could you please expand on this so I have a better understanding of what you're refering to? I know Yongzheng was known for a lighter composition of the porcelain
- Yellow looks wrong - did you review the links I provided that addressed the "Lime-green coloring", or yellow on the base as you refer to it? There are several period examples in there with the same color. Also this piece seems to be a continuation of the Kanxi example I noted in the post
-
- Tree doesn't look correct - I agree - it seems that most examples use a shade of brown to depict the branches, but there are examples with blue shading for the tree:
- Similar Peach tree example
- https://www.etherealauctioneers.com/auction-lot/a-rare-doucai-pomegranate-and-butterfly-dish-ma_60E44BFA7 7" target="_blank" rel="noopener">A rare doucai 'Pomegranate and butterfly' dish (Yongzheng)
- Base looks like copies (upside down) - Could you please expand on this as well? The pieces look like their marks are positioned correctly. I'm comparing to this example:
This Kangxi example also appears to have the same orientation:
Thanks for your time.
V/r, Brian
@jiawei-he Thanks for the reply. What're your concerns with the pieces?
Sorry, I don't have time right now as I am in Europe and off to bed.
Besides it would be very hard to elaborate on my comments in any greater detail. However, I will try to have a look while I am travelling tomorrow.
What might help you is to see side by sides so you can begin to train your eye to the subtle nuances between the authentic and reproductions. Also if you can go to auction previews to handle some high level pieces that could teach you a lot. Your eyesight needs to acclimate and that just takes time.
Something is technically wrong with this thread again, it isn't shown properly on my screen. Maybe too many links or too many pictures.
Birgit
First of all, the mark was upside down on the fake I bought, I wasn't refering to your items.
The dainty quality I mentioned was in relation to docai not necessarily Yongzheng wares. But here is a Yongzheng example.
See how daintily it has been painted, the hand is light but precise, it has an ethereal quality that I don't see in yours. Notice too how sparsely the yellow is employed. It may well be the expanse of yellow amplifies the slightly dirty greyness, but I can't open many of your links to check the shade. It just looks wrong to me.
Regarding the tree, the link won't open and I don't know this auction house. For all I know, that could be a copy, too - that isn't an accusation or criticism, just making the point that if I can't see it ....... etc
The thing is, if your bowls were genuine you got them amazingly cheaply, which in itself is a concern. More importantly, there are too many things causing doubt, this simply wouldn't happen if these were authentic.
I would follow all the advice you have been given and remember it is the whole piece that matters, it has to show the spirit of the style and period and for me, these don't.
I hope that helps and that others will correct me if I am wrong.
@julia Hi Julia, thanks for taking the time to explain your perspective more. I do see the faint/dainty, yet precise quality you're reffering to on the example you provided. I agree that many of the Yongzheng pieces I've seen also have this feature. Upon closer inspection of that Bonhams example though, the mark for me looks way off, and also appears to have sold quite cheaply as well (3k). I've seen some examples during my research that don't posess the dainty quality you've pointed out with the enamels. Here are a few I quickly dug up that contain more deeply shaded enamels similar to my pieces. I will try to dig up some more:
Back to the blue tree concern. I found a few more examples last night from the Kangxi and Qianlong period:
- Similar Peach tree example
- A RARE FAMILLE-VERTE 'PEACH' STEMBOWL AND COVER, QING DYNASTY, KANGXI PERIOD (1662-1722)
- RARE ET IMPORTANTE GOURDE EN PORCELAINE DOUCAI, DYNASTIE QING, ÉPOQUE QIANLONG (1736-1795)
- A BLUE AND WHITE QUADRANGULAR 'FOUR SEASONS' VASE, QING DYNASTY, KANGXI PERIOD (1662-1722)
To your point about the whole piece not fitting in, I would tend to agree. If it is genuine, it would have to be an extremely rare example. I've also re-pasted all the links below - Hopefully these work this time... I'm not sure why this thread keeps breaking :/
?ssl%3D1&source=gmail&ust=1718974785661000&usg=AOvVaw1yD3sbYc31pGqYuQDVDw0X">
?ssl=1" alt="ReignMarkCompare" width="297" height="291" data-bit="iit" />Size & Miscellaneous - They measure 7.25'' in diameter, and have slightly different weights. Peter mentioned the sizes should match period examples, and the weights should vary slightly. (they vary by about 1 gram).
One thing that is curious to me is the way the peaches are shaded/decorated. Most of the Yongzheng peach examples I've seen have spots on them. I haven't researched that as much, but I did quickly find one example below with similar shading:
1) https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/16275/lot/572/&source=gmail&ust=1718974785661000&usg=AOvVaw3is6cLCx20ooPnF9RiAeU H">Yongzhen Peach Dish (same size diameter)
2) https://theme.npm.edu.tw/opendata/DigitImageSets.aspx?sNo%3D04026551%26lang%3D2%26Key%3Dbamboo%255E22%255E%26pageNo%3D14&source=gmail&ust=1718974785661000&usg=AOvVaw1Ru662lJkO4o_q5La-m3G K">Similar Peach shading example (National Palace Museum)
@julia It appears my last reply broke the post. I've attached a word document with the links instead this time:
Hi Brian,
Goodness knows what has happened to this thread.
Just to clarify, I was not specifically pointing to Yongzheng docai as dainty, I am talking about the style. Also £3k is a lot more than £600 - or whatever currency we are talking about.
However, please do not worry about posting further examples. There are too many things that don't fit, if it were just one it might be different. Besides, too many people whose opinions I respect seem to agree.
As John said earlier, you'd do well to look at other examples to understand why yours looks wrong, instead of trying to prove it isn't.
Julia
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