Hi Michael,

I think it is very pretty and interesting that there is no mark, whatsoever. 

I am not really sure, especially not knowing how it feels, where it is being sold or anything, but if I had to say something, I would say 20th century.  I think mainly my reasons would be the shape isn't quite elegant, the different borders verge on fussy and the birds are depicted more realistically, there is nothing quirky about them.

I have probably just damned an extremely valuable, well-executed vase but my excuse is I am no expert, just here to learn!  The footrim, does look vaguely like a 19th c vase I had, but not the inside where it is glazed.  That bit bothers me.

Looking forward to hearing why I am wrong. 🙂

Best wishes,

Julia

Hi Michael,

really nice but difficult... The roosters strongly remind me of a plate I own from late Guangxu/early Republic (pictures below), but the colors are more delicate on your vase, so I think it might be a bit younger and would date it into Republic. Others might know more about this.

Dear Iluvatar,

You have a very nicely done vase. A number of things in conjunction suggest a date to me. It's shape is characteristic of production c. 1900, its foot rim looks in keeping with that, and so does also the quality and colour of the enamel work. On balance, it appears to me that you have an attractive period piece. May I ask where you acquired it?

Best wishes,

Alan

Hi everyone,

This is  so interesting.  I looked on this vase initially as though it were trying to be mid 18th century, as that is what it seemed reminiscent of.  I dismissed that but it didn't seem modern either.

Now I have seen Shinigami's plate, I can see the similarities, especially the chickens, that is just what I meant by more realistic. - that looks to be a lovely plate, I don't suppose you could possibly post a full photo, please?   I could look at these things all day!

I am looking forward to hearing more about the vase.  That pale blue is quite striking, things I come across tend to use a much richer blue like on the plate.  That whole pastel palette is just so pretty and it seems a nice size, too.  

Julia

Hi,

This is a master piece from late Qing or early Republic period. The painting has very fine details and the colors are so nice and not too bright.

In the early Republic period there were a couple of masters copied pieces from Qianlong and Yongzheng periods. They have very high quality. This vase could be an order from a rich family.

Best

Xin

Hi Julia,

here's the rooster plate for you:

Although it has a Daoguang mark, it is most probably from late Guangxu/early Republic. By the way, just some weeks ago Bonhams Edinburgh offered a bowl that was obviously made by the same artist. I tried to get it but it went up to €1425, which was more than I was willing to pay for it. (The plate was an Ebay find and cost me just €260.)

Thanks, Shinigami, that is such a nice plate.  You must be really pleased to have got it for such a good price having seen what the other went for.  My other footed bowl that I mentioned to you in the thread about my Tongzhi bowl, also has roosters.  I will get around to posting it.

Back to the vase, I thought it looked Yongzheng/Qianlong style, but not quite right for the period - so pleased I seem to be getting somewhere with on my learning path.  I love this site!  

Best wishes,

Julia

Dear Shinigami,

Although this is going a bit off piste, as they say, relative to the discussion of Iluvatar's attractive vase which is where this thread began, I might just say that I was aware of the Edinburgh Bonhams bowl, and had made a mental note of its connection with your dish. The bowl had a Jiaqing minyao mark on it. Your dish has a Daoguang mark. Both the bowl and your plate seem likely to have come out of the same workshop, some time around the end of the nineteenth century. This is interesting, because these items appear to bear witness to a particular line of porcelain production at this date that characteristically featured nicely drawn cockerels alongside that rather distinctive iron-red border that is shared both by your dish and the Bonhams bowl. A pity you didn't get the bowl too to add to your collection.

Best wishes,

Alan

Thank you Alan! This example also shows how exaggerated the prices in the big auction houses have become. That‘s why usually I don‘t bid there anymore. I am not searching for cheap opportunities in auction houses, but also I don‘t want to pay more than I think a piece is worth. 

Dear Shinigami,

While there's always a premium to be paid if you buy from a major auction house, your comfort zone there lies in knowing that your item is likely to be authentic. That may well be something worth paying extra for. If for some reason it turns out the item is not authentic after all (unlikely, but it can and does happen, as I know from my own personal experience), then a reputable auction house will give you your money back (the period within which they would entertain a refund claim is usually a fixed term of a few years; Christies currently allow five, for example).

On eBay, by contrast, while you may save on the buyer's fees, the onus rests totally on your own knowledge about the likely authenticity of an item, and your decision on whether to bid or not will doubtless be swayed by what the eBay seller says about the item's authenticity. As we know full well, some eBay sellers can be trusted in this regard, while others most certainly cannot. So on eBay, there may be good buys to be had, but there are far more perils, unless you really know what you're doing.

Here's a thought: what might your bargain 'Daoguang' cockerel dish make if you offered it for sale in one of the major houses? Not that you're going to sell it, but likely you'd do well out of it if you did. But then again, there are always the seller's fees to factor in as well ... Swings and roundabouts!

All the best,

Alan

Dear Alan,

thanks for your thoughts. What bothers me with the big auction houses is that the achieved price is often unrealistically high. For example this bowl which I, knowing the quality from my plate, would have estimated around 600-700 EUR, as there was a fake mark, no provenance and they couldn't even determine the correct age. To that add auctioneers' fee, VAT and shipping which makes about 1/3 of the sales price. But obviously some people to whom money didn't matter pushed the price into a level where I said: no, it's not worth it. Maybe I could have got it for 1500 EUR, but I doubt that I could ever resale it without considerable loss.

As I am on the point where I want to stop buying and start investing (over EUR 2000, but maybe only once a year), I think I will prefer the third way: not Ebay, not auction houses but a trustworthy dealer. I know a few who are specialists on their fields, where I can buy with confidence.

Best regards,

Shinigami

Hi all, thanks for your thoughts and contributions, it is as always very educational. I want to apologize for giving the impression (especially to Alan) that this was my vase, it wasn't. It was listed on a swedish auction site and I really liked it, but was unsure how old it might have been, and trying to figure out if it was something I wanted to bid on. Needles to say, it ended up a bit out of my price range (not to mention that even though I do buy republic pieces when I stumble upon them on markets and trift stores, it is not something I passionatly collect), but probably still a good price for a piece of this quality.

Here is a link to the auction: https://auctionet.com/en/822288-vas-porslin-kina-1900-tal

~ Michael

Posted by: Shinigami

Hi Julia,

here's the rooster plate for you:

Although it has a Daoguang mark, it is most probably from late Guangxu/early Republic. By the way, just some weeks ago Bonhams Edinburgh offered a bowl that was obviously made by the same artist. I tried to get it but it went up to €1425, which was more than I was willing to pay for it. (The plate was an Ebay find and cost me just €260.)

That plate is amazing! I'm a bit envious! (in a good way) 🙂

Regarding this vase, I had to laugh when I read on the Swedish auction house's web page: