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This vase isn't a million miles away in terms of design and composition...
@thomasumjohnson one difference is that on the dragon your dark circles sit inside circles instead of diamonds like on Sotheby’s dragon. But, I haven’t studied to see if that is vital. Yours even has a luting line, which is not hard to copy. I must say, I probably would have been fooled… unless seeing the foot rim in person would have kept me away. I’m not good enough on decoration yet.
I'm not sure why anyone would make a modern copy of a 19th century copy of a kangxi vase. As already stated some would pass the footrim for kangxi, so why not just stick double circles or a 6 character mark on the base? Rather than try to make a copy of a c19 vase worth ten times less than an original kangxi. It's hardly worth the effort.
These are very common pots made in and for the Vietnamese mark I have personally sold several of them the south eastern market tend to make their dragons and cloud differently and request the difference from Chinese potters. Usually these have tin embellishments. This is just my opinion.
@thomasumjohnson 19th c revival pieces can go for thousands of dollars so it's plausible it would be worthwhile financially to copy them.
I think there is a fine line between "authenticity paranoia" and healthy skepticism, that I at least think gets very blurred each time pieces are discussed here. So I'm gonna try to make some points that might be valid.
I'm guessing that at any time during the 19th century, there were thousands of people who decorated porcelain, both for domestic as well as foreign consumption. That means that the subject matter will be interpreted differently, depending on who holds the brush.
In that same line of reasoning, there was probably the same number or even more potters, so forms will also vary to some degree, depending on who potted the pot.
I remember a video Peter made a while back, where he mentioned that there wasn't a school that mandated how to trim footrims. Again, there will be some variation, depending on an assortment of factors, of how a footrim will look.
There is bound to be color variations, as there wasn't the same purification processes at the time, as we have today (best example I can think of right now, is the different variations of underglaze blue during the kangxi period).
In Peter's video about the sacking of the summer palace, the number of looted items is put at 1.5 million (not all porcelain of course). That is probably still less than 1% of all the porcelain made in China up till the end of the Qing dynasty (both for the domestic and foreign markets).
Of course, alot of those pieces have been lost, but as I think we all know, porcelain used to be a precious commodity, so it got repaired and still kept.
Another point that someone else already made in another thread on here is the lack of interest from ordinary people, who can't tell the difference between an older piece and one of those horrid washed out pieces of blue and white from the 70s and 80s. That means that good stuff does turn up in flea markets, thrift stores and similar places, because people don't care about it. Not saying it is common, but it does happen.
Well, rant over. Thanks for listening.
~ Decorative Arts, Antiques and Accessories, at Mollari's ~ www.mollaris.com
@lotusblack that makes some sense, just like the vase I posted before of a similar composition, regarding the Vietnamese market..
@iluvatar that was a damned good rant. it is frustrating to hear someone glibly say that the color is wrong, the shape is wrong, the design is wrong. if they are wrong, what is the right color, shape, and design? and do you honestly believe that there is only 1 color, 1 shape, and 1 design?
At one point i was gathering different examples of rose colored peonies from christies porcelain examples and of peach bloom and noticed a very sizeable variety of color tone and application of enamel.
authentication is art and science which must be approached with an open fluid mind. skepticism is warranted because the good stuff is the distinct minority. however, mechanical ham-fisted treatment is not the path to identification success.
The keys to assessment are 1. quality of art 2. composition of enamels and paste (oxidation, purity, coherence) 3. foot rims 4. evidence of wear. 5. and form anachronism. i am sure that a few more consideration could be added.
@tonyatl We can disagree without having to get insulting. "Glibly" and "ham fisted"? You say you want people to have an open mind, but one thing that is is sure to close minds is when you take personal shots at people. That is unnecessary and counterproductive. We're all trying to learn and help each other here, so let's not lose sight of that just because someone has a different opinion.
@johnshoe I don't think anyone's calling you ham fisted... Or anything is directed at you personally. He's just talking about the different approaches people take towards authentication
@tonyatl We can disagree without having to get insulting. "Glibly" and "ham fisted"? You say you want people to have an open mind, but one thing that is is sure to close minds is when you take personal shots at people. That is unnecessary and counterproductive. We're all trying to learn and help each other here, so let's not lose sight of that just because someone has a different opinion.
i didn't take any personal shots at anyone in particular and had no one in mind with my remarks. i was simply recalling and conflating many experiences over the years reading or listening to people talk about reasons why something was or was not authentic.
i don't care that anyone has a different opinion. that is what having an open mind is all about. but if those different opinions are not specifically and cogently substantiated, then the conversation and differences are not productive. generalities don't help me in connecting with an opinion.
interestingly enough, peter addressed this very issue in his latest video this past week. he said that differences of opinion are part and parcel of the game. he was speaking in connection with a big debate about some garlic vases.
@tonyatl to me, it sounds like you are trying to invalidate the opinions of those who disagree with you by name calling when they don't offer enough proof to satisfy you. Hopefully that's not the case, but that is certainly how it sounds.
I have sat through court ordered divorce mediations with fewer grudge matches going on, it is all opinion, you are free to take it or leave it.
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