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Hi Folks,
I made the mistake of buying another vase for you to burn me down on. I think it's C19 because the 4 character kangxi mark was only used in the 19th century according to gotheborg. So I'm assuming the it is either recent or C19. I couldn't find many dragon bottle vases. What do you guys make of it? Burn me...
its very nice...I agree its 19th Century.
Are you keeping this?
Mark
Very nice, seems to have a good size too. Score! 🙂
~ Decorative Arts, Antiques and Accessories, at Mollari's ~ www.mollaris.com
Ah, I'm so glad, I managed to buy something authentic.. The only annoying thing is I wonder if I missed this, which sold for a few hundred. I thought it was quite convincing for a transitional style vase
@imperialfinegems I might put it to auction, but I only bought it today..
@thomasumjohnson I made the mistake of buying another vase for you to burn me down on... What do you guys make of it? Burn me...
Is this sarcasm? I'm feeling froggy, so I'll bite.
Welcome to the Burn Unit!
At first glance, you might think that the overall looseness of the design and overall construction of the vase with Kangxi 4 character mark would make this an easy call as a so-so quality late 19th c. piece.
However, the manner of the clouds and flames seem out of proportion and placed in rather unusual areas of the vase. Additionally, with only the one dragon chasing the pearl (usually there are two, or perhaps a phoenix and dragon combo), the scene appears a bit odd, especially since the dragon is coming from above and reaching down to grab the pearl.... that's not how I understand the depiction is suppose to be rendered.
So, I think the piece is modern.... at least late 20th c.
As for the transitional style sleeve vase... glad to hear you did not spend your money on that one... an obvious fake due to the poor rendering.
Despite the goating about being a 'burn unit', I am being sincere about my assessment.
Because if I was really looking to 'burn' you, I'd ask how things worked out on that dragon carp plaque you consigned with Bonham's that I said was a modern copy, and you seemed to insist was possibly Kangxi or at least 19th c., right?
Of course, one piece has nothing to do with another, but my point being that any and all criticism about the posts you've made have been directed at the piece, not you personally - except for that last little dig, which was me just polking the bear.
This is probably the style of dragon scene they were trying to emulate. I also am not convinced. For me the blue is a bit off for late Qing, though it's subtle so I can see why people like it.
i say this as someone who is a veteran of the burn unit. i would have been afraid to buy the original vase due to the foot. it looked more 18th C. and consequently i would have been hesitant to buy it because when i think that something is 18th c. it usually turns out to be 20/21 c.
i need to watch peter's foot videos again for 18th c. i still have not figured out how to distinguish good 20th c. copies from 18th c. and they are not going to appear in the wild often any way. at some point i am going to have to break down to pay christie's prices for an authentic (low end) piece.
on the other hand, if something is a couple hundred dollars, i will take a risk, but after a while it adds up.
@tonyatl The issue with the foot on late 19th c. vases is that they vary alot, and are easy to copy because they are rather sloppy in their construction.
Up until about the last 10 years, there would be no concern about fakes copying late 19th c. wares like this, but nowdays, that is simply not the case. All of the construction compenants can be copied very accurately, so it is the artistry that must be relied upon when assessing the age.
In this case, and as John points out, the design seems to blend a style used during the Yongzheng, and to some degree the Qianlong, where the dragon wraps its body around the body of the vessel, but the maker combines this style with purely late 19th c. style of rendering the dragon.
Add the weird cloud and flames, and you should see how strange the overall look becomes .... there shouldn't be anything strange about a vessel depicting a dragon chasing a flaming pearl... it is a very well understood depiction.
one last thought on avoiding christie's nose bleed prices. peter searches and notes auctions for quality pieces which often can be had for reasonable prices. i need to login to that service again to see if there is any prey. an example in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.
Regarding the dragon, I have never seen such haphazard detailing of the scales with the solid-coloured circles, they are all over the place. May be I just haven't seen enough pieces, or looked closely enough before, but that creates doubt in my mind.
@greeno107 I'm here to be be burned and to learn, I was only being playful in that regard. However the dragon plaque you asked about is 19th century. Bonhams, Sotheby's and Wolley and Wallis all agree on that with no doubt in their minds, so I'm happy to believe them on that one. I'm glad it didn't sell for less than the 2000 reserve at bonhams, because I'd rather keep it than sell it for less than that. It's a real gem and there's nothing around that is comparable. A one of a kind. I'm also of the opinion that the bottle vase is c19. Mostly based on it being a bottle vase with this design, which is rarely seen in the 20th.
@thomasumjohnson I'm being playful, too.
You have such sound reasoning for disregarding the criticisms of your vase, that I think you should build a collection of similar quality pieces - fill your house!
Because there's nothing better than a collection of Chinese porcelains that one person or another will tell you are genuine, but don't sell when you put them up for auction.
I mean, how many knowledgabe buyers does Bonham's have, anyway? A few thousand? What do they know?
That, my friend, is how you make playful sarcasm.
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