Hi Mark:

Your comments are always so generous and I thank you. I'm always plagued by doubts about these sorts of things and knowing that others with expertise like the item and are not just being polite is very helpful for me. By the way, I also have a few duds, but I would never show those here! Even at home they are in places where I rarely have to look at them such as on high  ledges! My duds are not actually fakes, but rather examples of poor workmanship and bad artistry.

Best regards,

Errol

Thank you everyone!  As always, I learn more here than anywhere else.  I'm going to watch Peter's videos on footrims

Thank you everyone!  As always, I learn more here than anywhere else.  I'm going to watch Peter's videos on footrims

Thank you everyone!  As always, I learn more here than anywhere else.  I'm going to watch Peter's videos on footrims

Thank you everyone!  As always, I learn more here than anywhere else.  I'm going to watch Peter's videos on footrims

Thanks to everybody on this thread. Very illuminating !

hi Errol , 

I like your rouleau vase too, but I can't really date it , it could be late C18th or early C19th , but I'm not sure . The buff colour is not decisive and feet can vary depending on the size and weight of the item, the style of the vase etc.. I was mainly talking before about the numerous blue and white prunus jars you see , from many different eras. 

The absence of any sort of mark on your vase does not mean much, I think, given that most export porcelain had no mark. But I think it was more common to include marks on later C19th export items than earlier (?), so that might push yours back to early C19th, or before. 

I really don't know what proportion of real kangxi pieces had marks or not , it probably varied decade to decade, and whether more items were being produced for export. Giovanni or Xin will know much more than me about imperial Kangxi porcelain and the use of marks. 

The classic prunus jar or vase had cracked ice to show how the prunus ( plum blossom ) survives and flowers during winter, and this motif or pattern originates in the kangxi period (and was later copied massively), but your vase is slightly different with birds and is a more general scene, not following the standard pattern, so no cracked ice (I suppose this is why). 

Hi Tam:

Thanks for your helpful comments. I'm content with it being 18th/19th century. No one ever pretended it was earlier than 18th century. I like the birds and other decorative elements.

Regards,

Errol

Posted by: tam18

Yes I agree these three vases  are all C19th kangxi revival, and nice examples too, imo. Good size and shape and condition. 

the C19th footrims and the original footrims are different - kangxi porcelain tends to be heavy and dense and the footrims looks white and hard with few imperfections (usually) , and are often squared off with clear knife-cut marks. Whereas the C19th footrims are more buff coloured and rounded, sometimes with an oaty appearance.

If you watch Peter's educational videos about blue and white etc. you can learn more about how the footrims change over time.

Modern prunus vase copies sometimes have glassy or 'sugar coated' footrims, or are dull white and powdery, or are very dirty (from attempts to 'age' the thing).

I also think the kangxi examples almost always (?) have a distinct cracked ice pattern , with lines indicating the cracks , whereas on the C19th pieces, lines become (as here ) waves, or are more impressionistic, but this may not be a hard and fast rule - some C19th examples may  have the thin lines. 

I would ignore the marks, circles etc. because you can find every type of mark or none on the C19th copies and on the modern fakes.

and it's possible the four character kangxi mark is found on items from later in the reign - rules or edicts from the Emperor on decoration and marks tend to get ignored or changed as time passes. Originally the Kangxi Emperor didn't want any reign marks (hence the circles , rabbits etc which are a feature of kangxi porcelain) but later this rule was relaxed. 

Nice explanation.   ?  About the cracked ice pattern, mostly yes, sometimes there are also pieces without this pattern. Instead with very vibrant brush strokes. I have two examples, you can find one of them on my website.

Posted by: ErrolL

Hello:

I agree that these are likely Kangxi revival pieces from the nineteenth century. Your vases look rather similar in color and design to Chris's Kangxi revival vase. I have a magpie prunus rouleau vase from the late Michael Vermeer's estate that was sold at auction as an 18th/19th century vase (see photographs). Although my vase is apple green as compared with blue in your case, the same general principles apply as others have mentioned. My vase, which is about 17 inches tall, lacks marks of any kind.  I like your vases and think they are probably 19th century and therefore worth having if you like them. However, the asking price should be considerably lower than might be asked for actual Kangxi vases. I really, however, cannot suggest a price for these vases. I agree that the black neck on the third vase is somewhat unusual and wonder whether it represents a restoration, although it it not unattractive.

Regards,

Errol

Hi Errol,

beautiful vase. The decoration is very interesting, it contains styles of different reigns, Kangxi's prunus and rectangular shaped stones which are very popular from Yongzhen to Qianlong.

Xin

Errol, what a beautiful vase!  You have some lovely pieces.

Of the 19th c blue and whites, I think the third vase is the nicest, it has the best shape and also you can see the lines on top of the background brush strokes, where the artist has tried to put more of a "cracked ice" appearance into it.  It also doesn't have the same vertical column appearance of the others. I wonder if this one is possibly a bit older than the other examples.

That was a great explanation about what to look for, Tam, thanks, very helpful.  I think "oaty appearance" is a really good description: I know exactly what you mean by that and will borrow the phrase if that is ok?

Would you agree that the more recent the item, the less work seems to go into the decoration?  It is almost lazy, a sign they are copying not creating.  There are less flowers/branches, less appearance of cracked ice and more reliance on the horizontal brush strokes (waves), which become less randomly placed (as in the third jar?), and gaining an appearance of swiftly done, vertical columns.

Another very interesting thread - thanks everyone.

Julia

Hi Xin:

Thank you. I had not previously noticed the website address for you. I enjoyed looking at your lovely items and the descriptions you give of them. It would be wonderful if every seller of Chinese art did that including references, as you do,  that enable a potential buyer to look into these matters in greater depth.

Regards,

Errol

Hi Julia:

Thanks for your kind comment. I thought Tam's explanation of the reason for the cracked ice pattern was fascinating. I learn something new on the forum every day! 

Regards,

Errol

Dear Errol, 

If I may address just one of your questions on account of shortness of time: yes, I believe your vase to be a nineteenth century example.

And on a personal note, let me say how nice it is for you that you own a piece previously collected by Mike Vermeer. I used to correspond with him back in the day, a man generous with his knowledge, a true connoisseur and enthusiast, and someone much missed.

Regards,

Alan

Dear Alan:

Many thanks for your opinion! 

I was fortunate enough to get three other pieces from Michael Vermeer's estate that were included in the Brunk auction and I indeed feel privileged to own them. My understanding is that Christie's auctioned the prime items from the estate and that the remaining 50 per cent or so went to Brunk Auctions in North Carolina. So I have the second-tier items. However, they are all so lovely that I simply cannot imagine how unusual, rare or perfect the Christie's items must have been.

Kind regards,

Errol