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I agree with Mark that the last piece should be late 19th century. The wooden cover may be, may be not Kangxi period in my opinion ?
The wooden stand is later (probably also late 19th) as they usually are with those vases. It may be the original stand for that vase, because it fits perfect ?
Chris
Dear Nic,
the famille noire vase is late 19th century, the lamp vase is most probably Kangxi, pity for the several damages besides missing the top part. This guy takes horrible pictures, in the sense that they are clear but too much close, hence the shape is very distorted.
Giovanni
this guy uses wechat which is a very chinese thing , and I too think the photos and descriptions are poor and not good enough to assess or see the damage. I wouldn't buy under these conditions . It's possible these export items have been exported once at manufacture, re-imported in the last 20 years , failed to find a buyer in China for good money , so now they are trying export again . There are some dealers in Shanghai with lots of export items scooped up from minor auctions in the UK and elsewhere over the recent years. But Chinese collectors don't value them highly.
I think the famille noire vase is probably made in the C19th as a famille verte vase, but has then been 're-enamelled ' in black and fired again, hence the bad quality black body colour. This was a very common practice when 'famille noire' became the rage in the late C19th - the Lady Lever gallery in Port Sunlight , England has several 'Kangxi famille noire' pieces and published articles from the museum show they were later 'converted' to famille noire from famille verte originals..
tam
Tam that is interesting and would explain the horrible finish of the black but would the flowers have been white against a white background? Maybe they have been re-done, too.
I should have added earlier that I am not disputing his dating of the lamp (or the vase): I think it may well be Kangxi - judging from the photos at least. I was simply suspicious that either he or the items were not in this country but pretending to be (he does sound Chinese and as Tam said the use of wechat supports that) and I also would not buy from him.
Julia
Fascinating thread everybody. Thanks to Nic and Tam think you have answered some questions for me on my noire vase I have had this vase for over 30years and often wondered about the poor quality of the black glaze. It looks as if it has been painted on. The rest of the decoration is quite well done. I thought as the join in the vase is so prominent the had tried to hide the join by painting it black. How they could do that and leave the rest of the decoration untouched I could never work out. Whilst I am here how old do you think my vase is. It is 35cm tall.
Regards and cheers
Michael
As the flowers are white I wonder, like Julia, how the vase looked before overpainting. The true black of famille noire was achieved, if I remember correctly, by overpainting a green glaze with black. Please correct me if that is wrong, I’m not at home to look it up. As the green is already present at Michael‘s vase, it might be a real famille noire item.
Birgit
I love the birds on Michael’s vase! Especially the little dumpy one at the base - he looks throughly cheesed off! ?
Like Julia, I wonder if the flowers have also been repainted? They look chalk white and lacking in translucency which one would expect if the white underglaze was showing through?
But, as Tam says, maybe this one hasn’t been overpainted at all?
Great vase though! That bird is wonderful!
Nic
Dear Michael,
your vase is clearly late 18th century, as is the one from ebay discussed before.
There are three types of these famille noire vases, that are very different each other; I do not know if this is what meant by Tam, but to be clear:
There are real famille noire Kangxi items, which are very very rare, almost impossible to find nowadays on the market.
During the so-called Kangxi revival originated under Guangxu, they took original Kangxi famille verte items, and re-fired them after filling the spaces around the subject with the black enamel. These can be spotted by the quality of the decoration, fitting Kangxi features.
In the same period and later, copies of Kangxi famille noire ware has been produced. It is the case of Michael’s vase and of the vase on sale on ebay, which are not Kangxi, unlike the previous two types.
I have not understood what you mean Julia and Birgit about the white flowers. The flowers are white because just not enameled, it is the white porcelain body covered by the transparent glaze. It is not clear to me why you think that they should change if a black enamel has been applied on some other parts of the decoration. May be you can be more clear?
Giovanni
Hi Giovanni,
I thought about the second type of famille noire you mentioned, where they filled the spaces on old vases with black. This would only be possible if the decorations would have had some color before. But the flowers on this vase were white, so how would the vase have looked before filling the spaces? White flowers on a white vase. That led me to believe the vase was meant to be famille noire from the beginning. Sorry I‘m not sure if I can explain it clearly.
I also think that it’s a really nice vase with funny birds on it. The foot rim looks a bit unusual, I didn’t know these appeared before Republic.
Birgit
Perhaps now I understand you dear Birgit. I realize that I have not been clear.
White flowers are not enamelled (more precisely, can not be enamelled) if the surrounding background is let say green. If the surrounding background is white, then generally is the background that it is not enamelled and in that case the simple contour line is not enough to ressalt the flowers against the background, hence the petals are white enamelled.
In both cases it is not necessary to touch the white flowers if a black enamel has been overpainted on the background.
Is that what you meant?
Giovanni
Ah yes now I see what you mean, Giovanni. Thanks a lot.
Birgit
Dear All,
Thanks for the comments on my vase. I think my photo's make it look better than it is. The black has bled into the green in several places. The black has bubbles in it. The blue circle on the base is very light blue and a bit insipid I think my vase is late 19th century. Will post detailed photo's later. In the mean time here are two links I think followers of this thread will find interesting.
Cheers
Michael
http://gotheborg.com/glossary/famillenoire.shtml
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