Since I do not read Chinese, but rather memorize marks, I can't offer too much with respect to the quality of the mark. But as Tam18 points out, marks vary immensely as can be confirmed with a quick view of Shendetang marks on Sotheby's.

However, I am interested in the discussion about the rendering of the faces looking 'republic' in style.  I feel the rendering appears Daoguang, but of exceptional quality.

Here is the woman's face from the vase at auction:

Here is a woman's face from a set of 4 plaques I bought from a client who purchased them in Kowloon in 1970. They sold for $24,000 about 8 years ago on EBay, and I've been told they undersold.  The plaques came with very good provenance dating them 100+ years old a the the time of purchase in 1970, so Daoguang/Tongzhi.

Here is a woman's face from a Republic period plaque I sold, also about 8 years ago, for $7,000. The plaque was unsigned.

My personal opinion is that the red puckered lips, shape of the head, rendering of the eyes with the blush on the cheeks looks like those in pith paintings from the Daoguang and also has a lot more in common with the woman from my set of 4 Daoguang/tongzhi plaques than the republic woman's face.

Aside from the rendering, I like the foot of the vase ... it looks correct for the Daoguang period.

Given the shape of the vase, this was a very special piece when made, and the added details of the face seem appropriately. For these reasons, think if this vase gets good exposure in the Chinese market, it's going to sore in price.

Hi Greeno, your lady on the third picture looks Republic. The lady on the second picture looks a bit doubtful to me. Maybe around 1900 but only if you’re absolutely convinced it that has some age. Below are two pictures of Daoguang ladies from my collection. These are very typical for the time and later in the century developed into the well known Rose Mandarin little people  

A 1920 example from the book:

I am pretty confident in my set of 4 plaques as Dauguang / Tongzhi. Here is the photo of the set of 4.

Here is a photo of the 1970 antiquities certificate, bottom left corner actually has a black and white image of the plaques. I've verified thus document through a major collector and museum consultant, thus document is legitimate.

I think comparing Daoguang rose medallion rendering to what could be imperial Daoguang rendering is not a fair comparison.

@shinigami That book reference shows a good example of a Republican woman's face.

Note the round face with puffy cheeks (could be a man's face), and the brush work is heavy, not as detailed, and the blush looks like dark shadows and is missing above the eyes and along the bridge of the nose.

I think this is further support that the rendering of the vase is superior to Republic period work.

Hi Greeno, let’s wait for a second opinion. Your picture doesn’t enlarge well, so a closeup or two would be nice. 

@shinigamij. Sure...understood.

I sold the plaques, so I'm posting photos from my files and Im trying to limit exposure since they are no longer my property. How's this?

Thank you, that’s a good picture. For me the hairstyle with the side bun is a Guangxu and Republic feature. But let’s wait for more opinions. 

@Greeno107 & Shinigami,

Despite opinions to the contrary I still believe the vase that was the original post is republic period and not daoguang period. 

I did not post this earlier as I was kind of hoping somebody else might have recognized the style and manner of the vase in question. 

Since the vase is unsigned makes any attributes very difficult. Especially so since it's by way of pictures. Notwithstanding the current attributes that are coming out of China. Some are even better than the masters! 

In my opinion it's based loosely on the style, mannerism and free flowing clothing style that was a common trait of famous Republican painter Wang Qi (1884-1937). In my submission it's close but not by the hand of the master. 

Below are extracts from known works of this master. From 'Chinese porcelain of the republic period by Simon Kwan'.

Below are kwown examples of master Wang Dafan (1888-1961) from the mid-republic period.

I don't propose to address in lengthy detail the plaques posted by Greeno107. 

It's very difficult at the best of times to pigeon hole specific works to a definitive republican or possibly earlier period. Especially when there is only one or two images. 

These would need to have been seen up close and personal since the works are unsigned. Not only the front but also the backs would need to be carefully examined since they are unsigned, unknown works. They do look very nice though. 

I don't want to get into an argument but I strongly believe they (your set of four plaques) are not from your suggested period but later republican period examples. Despite what you have been informed and the certificate. 

The certificate is as you are aware a standard one. Was normally produced for the purpose of avoiding/providing documentation in relation to import tax as they are certified as over 100 years old etc etc. At least that was the case in Australia. I don't know about your neck of the woods. Similar situation for exports from the UK. Commonly available in Hong Kong for both authentic and non authentic pieces during the 2nd half of the 20th century. I am not suggesting your plaques are not authentic. Just that they appear to be from a later period. 

Greeno107 do you not think the images from Wang Qi bear resemblance to the vase posted?

I concur with Birgits thoughts on said images posted. 

Mark 

To me the lady on Birgit's vase has more in common with Greeno's third example from the Republic. I see a similarity in the warmer tones of the complexion and in the ways the eyes are drawn. Can anything be learnt from the clothing?

I am not sure the trees and mountains of the Zacke piece are like those of the Daoguang period, but I could only find one Christies vase to compare with. On the other hand they are not as well drawn as some Republic pieces either, this vase seems to rely more on lines to provide shape and texture to the mountains. 

The other thing that struck me was the way the grass area goes all the way around the vase. It is something that I find ( and I may be wrong) to be quite a feature on PROC vases, but more defined than this, which is more subtle but possibly a sign of an statistics style trend developing?

Regardless of age, I'm just happy you all are posting pictures of such great stuff for us to look at. Keep it coming! In fact, This would be a wonderful topic for a ZOOM meeting. Maybe Mark, Birgit, and Greeno would want to participate and contribute by giving a little presentation and tutoring session for others to learn from?  John

Liu Xiren (1906-1967)

Paircof vases in fencai colours 1930-1940. Each with one artist's seal and Juren Tang Mark on base.

Wang Xiliang (born 1923).

Vase painted in Fencai colours and dated 1943.

Fang Yunfeng

 Known works from 1925 - 1949

Anonymous work (1925-1940)

Wan Yunyan (active 1930-1950)

Dated 1942 

And lastly, 

Liang Duishi (active 1920-1937)

It was very common to see calligraphy/poems with artists seal etc during and after the guangxu period. It was very rare to see before said period.

I have posted the previous posts/images to illustrate that republican artists especially Wang Qi did do works in a variety of styles in the modern age.

This has been a most interesting conversation/topic. 

Mark 

Hi all - 

Just for comparison:- 

Attached images of two Dauguang period vases, private Hong Kong collection, with Shende Tang zhi marks ... 

Note the differences in the enamel tones, the painting and detailing of the tree on the second vase, and the mark writing compared to the Zacke piece - all very different ...

As mentioned, not my particular area but would concur with others thoughts - not Daoguang but a very beautiful Republic piece ... 

A small historical note:- 

Shende Tang was a building complex completed in the 10th year of the Daoguang reign, so 1830. It was located on the west side of the ‘jiuzhou qingyan’ group within the old summer garden, the Yuanming Yuan and, as Birgit correct mentions above, became one of the favourite residences of the Emperor, who spent most of his last period of life there ... 

Stuart 

@imperialfinegems I think the renderings of the vase being auctioned are on par with the Republican masters you've referenced, but I see them differently.  Nevertheless, you must agree that the master's works are the exception of Republic rendering, not the standard for Republic period works. So, in my initial response to this thread, I was simply responding to those stating that the faces looked 'Republic' and pointing out that this vase deserved further scrutiny. The dialogue has been very insightful.

If we are judging only the artistry, then I am in agreement that the auction vases' rendering could be Republic if rendered by a master, and the sale price may be in like with the exceptional quality of the best of Republican wares, not just your run of the mill early 20th c. piece. 

But are we ignoring all other evidence? This is a reputable auction house that has handled the vase, they have documented provenance, the form and foot appears to be appropriate for the period, and the rendering (aside from the faces) seem to be done with earlier enamels than Republic period.

Finally, we have a mark that I can agree does not match perfectly with other known period marks, but ask yourself....

Would a Republic master leave their name/signature off such a fine piece, and in its place put a badly written Shendetang mark?  I think not.

Either of the period, or an exceptional Republic copy, I'd have my credit limit increased on my credit card if I really wanted to buy this vase.

Disclaimer - I love the vase, but I consider it bad taste to bid against someone who has asked for advice, so I give my best wishes that Shinigami to succeed in winning the auction at a favorable price! Good luck!

Hi greeno107, 

It's actually not that unusual to have a high quality rendered vase that is not signed by said artist during the Republic period. I think I posted a sample in my previous post. Not exactly the same but I would be surprised if it was. 

I agree with you the true masters of the republic period almost always signed their works. However they were also teaching and had some superb students who often did not sign all their works. Point in case. Perhaps a student tried and successfully copied a similar works to the master Wang Qi.

I dont know the provenance of the vase etc. I always thought very highly of the auction house. But a friend who I will not mention here has a close friend who worked as a specialist at the auction house. 

He later resigned because he claimed they were selling too many fakes. I can't confirm any of this. 

I also really like the vase but will not be bidding on it in respect to Birgit interest. 

Mark