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Amazing story! always appreciated your keen eyes and thorough explanation. great story!! and well deserve!
@greeno107 I just want to clarify, you are talking about IM Chait in LA - the label and Chait Gallery they are referring to is Ralph Chait Galleries in NYC. They are totally different and not related. Ralph Chait is one of the best in the US, IM Chait is a scam and sell fakes.
Just wanted to clarify as I have seen this confusion before and they are in no way related.
I love the story with the damaged vase!
Thanks for that. That is what I was remembering Peter discussing. So this label is the ok one as it says New York. That sale should be traceable too.
What an interesting thread this little pot has generated. I wonder how it will do on Thursday.
I was referring to Ralph Chait in the first half of my post- they had an amazing collection that was sold through auctions few years back, and as with almost every major collection, some pieces were not up to par, and did not make it into auction, sometimes surfacing at smaller auctions.
However, I did not know there was no relationship between the IM Chait California auction house and Ralph Chait.
I am aware the California auction sells junk, and as I am not one to weigh my decision to buy on provenance, I never looked further into the relationship (or lack of) and have never bought from them.
I regret conflating the two - thank you for pointing that out.
@lotusblack Brian, why not contact the Chait Gallery in NU for confirmation?
(212) 397-2818
The piece looks questionable to me, too, and I don’t really put merit in labels unless they’re quite old.
@greeno107 I don’t need to waste anyone’s time I handled a large lot of Kangxi porcelain recently and talked to few more experienced collectors also Peter and was told a shiny polished foot is always a given on older late period pieces plus the form is not correct. Here is a comparison one from a museum other the Brunks I see night and day difference in the paste glaze and mark. I also see some bids have been retracted. Nothing is adding up with this piece the story the form it’s a great study and has been educational for me.
To me this looks like a copy of a Chait label. Here are two real ones. I think this is a print out of a real one (reason for the photocopy look) that someone found online. Worth mentioning, I have never seen a Ralph Chait label without the period listed in the interior. Brunk is not doing this on purpose - I know them and they are more American art experts than Chinese.
@lotusblack It seems the simplest solution is to make an inquiry, so I called Brunks and was told the cataloger will call me back, and I emailed Chait. Let’s see what they say.
@greeno107 Tim I see how you find such great items reaching out to unknowns has always been a weakness for me I need to probably become more aggressive if I’m to ever pull the resources that will lead to great discoveries.
@lotusblack Brian, I think you’re doing great and you are well justified to be apprehensive about these online auction items making claims of high quality provenance.
But, yes, don’t be apprehensive about calling it writing to investigate further. In most cases, galleries and auction houses are happy to help.
As it turns out, Brunks called me back about an hour ago (I was having dinner, so I couldn’t post until now).
Ellie, their catalog specialist has put n a call to Chait and us waiting a response.
Ellie was friendly and helpful.
I asked about the black light photos and extent of damage. He explained the entire piece is badly broken, and covered with restoration paint/clear coat, so the black light makes the entire piece glow.
I asked if he felt that the mouth/neck was removed, or if the opening is as shown, which he said he would study and photograph the mouth, and send me the results.
So, here’s where I stand.
The possibility fake provenance on s new piece can not be ruled out, but I am leaning towards the piece being old (possibly not period), severely damaged, and restored excessively, which may have involved bleaching that would have made the footrim look oddly new, and possibly the Chait label was left in during the process.
If it turns out to be a complete fake, I’m confident that Brunk’s is as much a victim of the scam as the rest of us.
Hopefully Chait will write back.
Just got a text from Brunks - it appears the mouth/neck may have been removed.
Also, they advised Chait called them back and are unable to confirm if the piece is was theirs or not (that’s actually not surprising to me).
So, my best advice… ignore the provenance… judge the piece and it’s condition.
@greeno107 Tim I think your detective skills might be explaining some of the story and solving a mystery. Was this a mark and period piece that was damaged but this would have had to been after May 9th 2009 as the appraisal mentions nothing about damage and is appraised at $4500 dollars then a few weeks later there is a repair bill for $2000 for a restoration to the same piece. If the documents are good this could be authentic or it could be a later copy it’s a cluster $&@? But yes could be a mark and period piece but would not be able to really tell because the entire body is filled with paint and clear coat. It’s most likely if the documents are authentic the owner dropped the piece on the way out of the appraisal or did a faker purposely break and restore to trick a collector into believing it’s an broken authentic imperial kiln piece up on the market. I’m almost inclined to bid on the piece so I can strip it down and take a look at it without the coat of paint. How interesting.
this would have had to been after May 9th 2009 as the appraisal mentions nothing about damage and is appraised at $4500 dollars then a few weeks later there is a repair bill for $2000 for a restoration to the same piece.
I think if you look again at the appraisal, 2nd paragraph, last line states:
‘There has been excellent restoration work done on the piece.’
That kind of subjective assessment of the restoration, and absence of specifics on the damage is rather unprofessional, but not surprising.
@greeno107 @lotusblack @Jg1133
Hi Tim, Brian and all …
A most intriguing discussion …
Attached images/description of a monochrome white glazed ‘Taibo zun’ with three raised archaistic ‘chi’ dragon roundels, Kangxi mark/period, Gugong, Palace Museum Beijing …
Genuine Ralph Chait Gallery labels always contain a period dating for the object in the middle of the round. Even if, as Tim mentioned, the piece has been bleached/ excessive cleaned some trace of this should remain …
However, again as Tim says, old dealer labels, letters/receipts and such from restorers can/are been convincingly faked, one must put such things aside - and judge the object alone …
Stuart
@ming1449 Thanks Stuart here is a side by side comparison of the molded area. I like the flow in the Kangxi museum example the other looks stiff to me.
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Bonhams are international auctioneers of fine Chinese and Japanese art. We specialise in rare Imperial and Export Chinese ceramics and works of art, as well as Japanese ceramics, fine and decorative works of art from the Neolithic Period to the 20th century. View on map
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