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Confused by some mixed information. Need help, please.
Don’t give up on your vase. I gave up on my little bowl being Guangxu M&P because of the thick enamel mark and my inability to find another quite as thick. Everything else felt right including weight, glaze, form, etc. Some on this forum thought, as I did, that the mark was not quite right. However, Brian found one that was just as thick and the exact form. Since then I’ve found more thick marks. That being said, almost assuredly there is another like yours out there. But, if I sent pictures to Peter, Christie’s and Sotheby’s and none felt it was authentic I’d say 99.9 percent chance they are right and I’m wrong. I also still have a vase with no comp. Some reputable dealers have said modern, Canton, art deco, etc etc, not Chinese, not Asian. Anyway, you get the picture. Still, won’t give up until the mystery is solved. Here’s the thick mark.
Judging by the back only I agree that it highly probable to modern copy.
These unfortunately are being heavily copied.
It's definitely Chinese in the style of Imperial ware Guangxu. The seal mark is very thick. The yellow is a little bit off. But that could also be the camera.
This is one I recently viewed.
From Marchant m&p.
If you are interested, you could go back and see the one Brian found by a renown dealer who used to work at Sotheby’s and Christie’s that has the same thick mark and the rest of the bowl is the same as well. This bowl ended up selling for 3600 and I was offered 4000 from a Chinese dealer in Atlanta. Must be the camera. The thread was titled Guangxu mark and what is it? or something like that. There were many photos on that thread. I’ll try to find what that thread title was or maybe Brian could add that photo if he is willing and can find it fast. Evidently, this bowl was the real deal. Of course, always a chance it wasn’t.
Feng-Chun Ma Is a leading expert in Asian arts if her compatible is spot on its authentic. I have no doubt this yellow ground bowl is authentic Mark and Period.
@avatar I am generally a harsh critic, but you should consider the following.
First, based upon your prior posts, I think you are very tenacious - you obviouly work very hard to find examples of fine Chinese porcelains, and you seem to keep a good eye on what is going on in the market. That's an absolute must for finding 'lost treasures', and few people have that level of committment. Good on you!
Second, what can be deteremined in photos is generally far less than what can be by actually handling the item, so both criticisms and praise should be taken with a grain of salt. Neither offer 100% certainty of authenticity.
Thirdly, even the major auction houses and museums make mistakes. Barring documented provenance that shows the entire lineage of an objects 'life', assessments are based upon comparisons to known/similar items. This is not pure science, so mistakes can happen as there are such things as 'exceptions to the rule', but generally quite rare.
But, these words are wasted if you are unwilling to accept criticism, even unwarranted (bad) criticism), and weigh the criticism with the same degree of seriousness as the praise.
What if everyone just said they thought everything you posted was genuine without giving consideration to physical characteristics of your piece? Would you also stop posting photos? The feedback would be just as worthless, wouldn't you agree?
The reality is that the number of excellent fakes are perhaps 100 to 1 compared to genuine M&P, and perhaps even 1000 to 1. If you agree with this statistic, wouldn't it make sense that there is more criticism over a mystery piece, than praise?
The truth is that your weak spot is that you do not like to read that what you see as absolutely genuine, to another looks like an obvious fake. So, I ask you, who likes that? Nobody likes that, but that is the process of authentication for EVERYONE.
I know that I have a bit of a reputation for finding some very rare pieces, but I can tell you that it has taken quite a journey of buying good and bad pieces, followed by a lot of criticism, that has allowed me to reach a place where I feel confident in my ability to tell genuine from reproduction on most pieces I come across - but still not all. I still make mistakes, just like everyone else, and some of which really make me feel like a novice.
Do you want to be better at buying Chinese porcelains? Do you want to share your knowledge with others who are trying to be better? Do you value this Forum?
Get over your hurt feelings. Eveyone is looking forward to your participation, and we are all cheering for the day you post a million dollar piece that we can all agree is a fantastic find!
You are among friends... believe me.
I have already posted several "million-dollar-pieces" here but there were next to zero reaction to these. I guess there won't be any cheering untill the day a piece actually sells for a million dollar ...
@avatar what I said was,
we are all cheering for the day you post a million dollar piece that we can all agree is a fantastic find!
The keywords being, ‘ALL AGREE is a fantastic find’.
You don’t want to sell your treasures to just prove a point - okay, I get that.
How do you know they’re million dollar pieces? Can you provide that?
If members have posted misinformation or wrong opinions, isn’t it important to provide the evidence to correct the errors?
I guess it’s your choice to how you participate in this Forum, but I don’t think you get much value from it from only participating from afar.
@imperialfinegems by the way, mine was also 10.8 cm and unbelievably only 2.3 ounces. Sorry for the photos.
@avatar in my opinion and experience so far, if you ask about a Chinese porcelain piece on this forum, at least 99.5% of the time you will find your answer. If you send photos to Peter, you’ll find your answer at least 99.9% of the time. (A little shout out to Peter and the admins and members of this forum.) We all hold out hope for that piece we can’t find an exact comp for. Or, that one that looks really close. But that comp is out there even if it’s mark and period, unless it’s a crazy crazy rare piece. I’m still holding out hope on a few things, but when I sell I’ll have to accept what the collecting world says. That’s why I’m not selling yet.:) I’m determined to find a comp.
We all hold out hope for that piece we can’t find an exact comp for. Or, that one that looks really close. But that comp is out there even if it’s mark and period, unless it’s a crazy crazy rare piece. I’m still holding out hope on a few things, but when I sell I’ll have to accept what the collecting world says. That’s why I’m not selling yet.:) I’m determined to find a comp.
There's a difference between hoping to find a comp, and a denial of evidence.
If everything is physically right about a certain piece, but you can't explain a difference in one aspect, you certainly should hold out hope.
But, if there is an accumulation of evidence to the contrary of a piece being genuine, then you're not holding out hope, you are simply ignoring good methodolgoy for authentication, and denying yourself the opportunity to learn and become better at this very difficult trade.
I do not take pleasure from crushing someone's hopes that they found a treasure, but I take extreme displeasure in reading that despite good justification, someone would catagorize negative criticism as somehow a personal attack, or a good reason to stop posting in this Forum.
The belief in a piece being genuine, and the questioning of such a belief by the Forum is not a flaw in the Forum, it is the principle that the Forum is founded on.
If you want to learn and teach, you need to post. If you don't want to post, you either know everything there is to know already (and should write a book), or your ego is so inflated that you'll pop at the first encounter with push back on your claims.
Is this a Forum for serious discussion and learning, or is this just a way to self-graitify one's ego?
We are way off topic on this thread..... sorry.
BTW- If someone in the collecting world pays a high amount for a fake, does that make it is real? Sales results are NOT a good method for authentication - I really can not believe we're back to essentially debating if the ends justifies the means.
@greeno107 I agree with what you said about hope and evidence. However if someone says my piece is modern, 99.9% of the time they surely ought to be able to show me a comp. Someone once said they saw boxes of vases like mine, but they couldn’t show me one. I’ve been looking for two years and haven’t found one like it in form or scene. It’s not Chinese though… something else.
Your situation with your yellow dish is not what I'm referring, and to be clear, as a monochrome it is extremely difficult to judge on the basis of photos. And to your credit, you posted a lot of photos, so I think you made a great effort to seek the truth, weighing everyone's opinions.
What I'm talking about is what seems to be a deliberate act to post a single photo that lacks sufficient detail to judge fairly, then to dig in that it genuine while refusing to participate in a discussion by offering additional photos because, essentially, people in the Forum are mean.
I'm not grouping you into this behavior, but I think it doesn't deserve a defense, either.
If someone is convinced they have a million dollar vase but is afraid of hearing dissenting opinions then a public forum might not be a good match for their personality.
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