Posted by: clayandbrush

Dear Xin,

I went at the site of the auction and after looking at the flask I to was perplexed, but, most important, the item has been canceled!

Giovanni

 

Yes, I see, it's very strange.

Posted by: Alan Fletcher

Dear Forum members,

Let me draw your attention to the fact that lot 14 of the Rasmussen sale, the Yuan blue and white vase, is being discussed under two different Forum threads.

If a TL test has in fact confirmed its age as 14th century, then I believe that that must be the end of any further discussion based simply on connoisseurship.

There can be no further debate if science has indeed confirmed it to be of the Yuan period.

Regards,

Alan

science ?  ?  ?  ? 

Posted by: Corey

Here is an example of a likely authentic copper red flask sold at auction in Macau for 72.6 million yuan. My favorite. It combines a rare shape with a rare relief decoration and an even rarer uniform copper red glaze. Monochrome porcelain of the Yuan/early Ming dynasty is in itself extremely rare. Seen in that perspective the price paid is not really eccentric at all.

https://auction.artron.net/paimai-art5034230235/

I checked this object. It was in the auction of Macau Chung International Auctions Co., Ltd. This company is not a reliable one. So don't use their sources. So be careful with this red flask. Completely red is not Yuan style. Favourite colours of Mongolians are white and blue. Red is used for small part decoration.

http://www.macaucsa.com/ch/Default.asp

Yes, I agree that Macau Chung International Auctions Co., Ltd i basically not reliable but I know that some very important authentic pieces has been sold by them to top dealers and important collections including the imperial collection.  I think the red flask is real but I don't know for sure. I was just about to post another possibly authentic flask with underglaze copper red decoration from another collection that interestingly has the same handles. I have only been able to find very little information about that collection online.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1583976/000151712613000251/fangs1.htm

Monochrome copper red porcelain from the Yuan or early Ming dynasty is well known but extremely rare and highly sought after. As an example there is this ewer from the Meyingtang Collection. Note the similar red ewers depicted for reference in the lot notes from Sotheby's.

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/ceramics-myt-hk0377/lot.36.html

It also seems there are copies made in the Qing dynasty. I found this image online which should be a copy from the Qing dynasty, but unfortunately the description didn't mention what museum that flask belongs to. There is also a flask with copper red decoration at Hebei Museum but that one and its cobalt blue counterpart might in fact also be later copies. The dragon handles of that pair is remarkably similar to the dragon handles of my own flask.  

Dear Corey,

Yes, you're somehow right. But, you didn't understand what I tried to tell you. First you have to understand the history about it. Red was not the main stream colour at that time first. Second the decoration on the red flask you showed is not Yuan style. Looks only similar, but not the same.

The last undergalze red flask (dragon) is definitly fake. Look at the painting, it's so ugly. Second, the appearance of the underglaze red is totally wrong.

You need reliable sources, not arbitrary sources. You must be sure where your pictures come from.

Xin

I didn't understand what you tried to tell me? It's joke, right? And honestly I'll have to admit that I don't understand what you mean with "Red was not the main stream colour at that time"? Here are some more examples of monochrome copper red ware and copper red in general from the Yuan dynasty:

http://dajia.sssc.cn/view/176102_102774.html

Here's a quote from a reliable source of informations: 

The earliest known example of Yuan underglaze copper red is probably the dish found in the Sinan shipwreck (A.D. 1325). It has two leaf incised, washed with a lighter copper red and calligraphy written in a thicker copper red pigment.  The dish was then covered with a Qingbai glaze and fired. Most of the known examples of the copper red were decorated with motif executed in pencilled style.  Majority has the Qingbai type glaze. The red is usually light and grayish to tone, indicating that control over the material is still not perfected. "Copper red is volatile and unstable during firing.  If too thinly applied, it may volatilise and lose its red colour.  If too thickly applied, it becomes unsightly darkish in tone.   There are a number of extant copper red vessels with impressed or incised motif.  The copper red was either washed over the motif or the motif reserved with red background.  They may be examples of early experimentation with copper red."  http://www.koh-antique.com/history/historyyuan.htm

The picture of the red dragon flask was copied from a reliable source of pictures (fotosearch.com). Many of the items there depicted there are from well iems from well known collections but unfortunately the credit source is not specified in the accompanying description. Or do you mean that "fake" and "Qing dynasty copy" is the same thing?

First, sorry for my bad English. I try to make it clear. I also respect your opinion.

Yes, your first link shows a lot of examples of underglaze red Yuan porcelain. The monochrome red stem cup, red plate and small red ewer are late Yuan, early Ming. There are different opinions. Compare with archaological finds in my opinion they are of Hongwu era.  The other pieces are typical Yuan porcelains, no doubt. But with only red decorations, not monochrome red or completely red. That's the point. I was talking about the red one from Macau Chung International Auctions. This one is not the main stream type, not right. Think about it. The monochrome pieces have no or very decent decorations. But yours with a lot of relief and full of decorations. Why ? I have no idea.

They are much much more blue-and-white, Qingbai ware and white Shufu ware than underglaze red. Blue and white are the main colours.

If you find some proofs about your flask, please teach me. I will be happy and greatful. ? 

"The picture of the red dragon flask was copied from a reliable source of pictures (fotosearch.com). Many of the items there depicted there are from well iems from well known collections but unfortunately the credit source is not specified in the accompanying description."

Fotosearch.com is not a website of museums or institutes about Chinese art. Read following introduction on wikipedia:

Fotosearch is a stock photography company, founded in 1998. The company sells royalty-free and rights-managed photography, illustrations, video footage, clipart, and audio clips. Today, with digital images from over 140 publishers,^[1] it is one of the world’s largest distributors of stock photography.

That means I can also post fotos of fake things there. No body cares.

So if you give us the source of this photo, it could help us to learn. If not, we can't trust it und use it as a reference. Just my opinion.

So thank you for your post. I also learned from you. Sorry, my English is too bad.

It's perfectly all right, Xin. I actually have to apologize, because it seems you were right since one of the sentences in the Chinese link I posted says that 'copper red was not the main stream colour in the Yuan dynasty' when translated with google, I just haven't what means.  I've been lacking time with a computer so I need to the topic in a later post.

It's a while ago since my latest post in this thread even though I wanted to follow up on the topic but unfortunately failed to do so. But I have just come across two more articles in the Antiquestradegazette regarding the flask. Apparently Bruun Rasmussen returned the award even though they were still standing by the flask’s original attribution, having subjected it to scientific testing in Germany. It was then the consigner who was doubtful that the flask would obtain a fair price and wanted them to withdraw it until further notice. 

https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/print-edition/2018/november/2368/news/asian-art-in-london-to-overhaul-awards-after-authenticity-of-best-object-winner-questioned/

https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/print-edition/2018/december/2370/news/bruun-rasmussen-pulls-chinese-flask-from-auction-over-uncertain-dating/