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Me, too. ?
Thanks Alan Fletcher for your informative, accurate post regarding this item/subject.
Any porcelain made within the imperial workshop would have been made to the highest standard and any sub-standard were destroyed, period with no exceptions!
The only exception to this high standard was the carving of large nephrite boulders. 'Most boulders were transferred from Xinjiang to Beijing, and some were shipped by canal to Yangzhou for carving IF the imperial workshop in Beijing COULD NOT COMPLETE required objects in time'
Quote from Fitzwilliam Yushan Cambridge Museum.
As for the sale of this item, I am reminded of what the great circus owner P.T. Barnum once said along the lines of there is a mug born every minute.
Mark
I am really surprised Christies are selling it and being so vague - 19th-20th century with an "apocryphal mark" just sounds like they are covering their backs, or worse still, encouraging bidding on something they are not certain of.
It doesn't inspire confidence.
Julia
Hi Julie,
I am sure there will be a number of interested parties in this lot.
Will be interesting in how it goes.
19th/20th means in most cases siding on 20th rather than 19th. ?
At least it will now have provenance.
Mark
Hi Mark,
I am sure you are right. 🙂
I just feel irritated at Christie's giving this some integrity - I can't believe they are unable to tell whether this is 19th or 20th century. To me there is a difference between 19/20th century and 19th - 20th century.
Although maybe it is a question of when is a fake not a fake? When it is not being sold as anything other than a decent reproduction? Maybe?
As you say, it will now have provenance and where might that lead .... who knows!
Julia
Hi Julie,
With about 3 days to go till the auction held by Christie's that famille item we posted about is currently at 1700 pounds with 14 bidders to date. ?
Expect it to probably exceed 3000 at this rate of interest in this dirty bottom rim item.
Wish I was the vendor ?
Will keep my eye on it. Might even send them an email regarding their claim.
Mark
I actually like the Christies vase , the pink ground is very attractive , it's a good size , and the painting is excellent. I feel the dirt on the bottom footrim could come from a dark wood stand, and not from some nefarious process .
The problem is Christies are too vague in their dating - if they'd said late C19th to mid C20th then the buyers would be more confident . As is , the buyer is potentially buying a 1990s vase, but I don't think that is the case.
Sometimes things are just undateable within 100 years, and I guess Christies are letting the buyers decide. In this kind of online sale , the auction house presumably does not spend lots of time researching the piece. I imagine 'the lady' whose property it is , is known to Christies and she can vouch for some time of ownership.
Correct me if I'm wrong , but doesn't 'property of a lady' mean a lady of title , or rank? It's a very old-fashioned thing.
tam
I don't doubt the quality and indeed in years to come I guess people will pay outrageous amounts of money for something like this but this is the vase that Peter singled out as a fake. At least, it looks very much that way on close inspection and there is, to me, a big difference between a 19th century copy and a late 20th century fake. However, this is a difference that may well fade as time goes by, especially when it has been invested with the provenance of being sold by a major auction house. I find that interesting.
As for it being the property of a lady, I am not sure exactly what that means now! 🙂 Wish I could recall who was selling it on ebay.
Julia
Hi Julie and Tam18
I was not aware that peter had mentioned this vase and or it has slipped my mind.
I have forwarded an email yesterday to Christies airing my (our) concerns regarding this item and currenting waiting for their specialist to contact me regarding same.
It shall be interesting and I will of course let you know their response etc.
Hi Tam the term property of a lady and or indeed the property of a gentleman actually means nothing.
It is just a term they use because they can't provide provenance and in order to give it something they label it as so. Just a sales pitch used by a number of salesrooms etc.
It is appealing, nice colour and detail etc but so are some of the modern ones I have seen.
Mark
Hi Julie,
The seller was en9138 and it sold for 2630 pounds.
I have posted the bases of both for you to have a look at. The top one from ebay the other from Christie's
Mark
Yeah clearly the same vase , but it's amazing what a difference good photography can make. (a previous poster much earlier in this thread said the same thing). The ebay photos make the enamels look dull and washed out , but in the christies catalogue they look bright and a good colour.
The vase is up to £2800 now , with 2 days to go, so several people seem keen. Some of the other (very good) items in the same sale have yet to receive a bid.
tam
Hi,
I note that said vase from Christie's sold for 9375 GBP including bp
Mark
Likely fake in my opinion. I have noted over the last year that this eBay seller has quite a lot of good quality copies. Interesting to see what can get past the big auction houses.
Some other suspect items from this seller recently:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/-/183184963024?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l10137
A couple of other things to note:
I know of a vase that was sold at one of the big 3 auction houses where they stated 'Provenance: an English private collection' when it was actually traded for a phone charger at a car boot sale.
Also, a specialist at one of the big three auction houses told me that they are not liable if an item is described incorrectly. If this is true, even if this vase is fake they are not liable.
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