It only says  qianlong marked. I think the box fits the description, nowhere does it say it is a 18th century piece . The seller is definitely trying to lure naive buyers with is ''qianlong marked, old house, estate , collector and auction house treasures'' claims. He knows it is new but you can't call it fraudulent, not very professional  nonetheless....

I know what you mean. Please note I didn't accuse the seller of fraud. Maybe "deception by omission". I also don't think it's ethical to sell a piece like this in the "Asian Antiques" category. 

I note that the pictures of said item are slightly out of focus/blurry which leads to the mystique of the listing.

Sadly this description is just a sales technique used not only here but on many items/antiques being offered on ebay.

Not much one can do about it I am afraid. The waters are full of sharks.

Mark

You're so right, Mark. I think I feel driven to warn people about these Canton Enamel items for a few different reasons:

-They're relatively new on the fakes market. I've noticed a prevailing myth that fakes aren't as big of a concern with Canton Enamel as they are with porcelain, because the demand isn't there. However, I've noticed even in the past year that these fakes have gone up several notches in quality, and have started to flood the market. They're still pretty obviously fake (to me), but a lot of buyers are being fooled into spending many thousands of dollars on them.

-Fake Canton Enamel doesn't get a lot of press, at least no where near the exposure that fake porcelain gets.

-There's not much expertise in the field of Canton Enamel, and there are still a lot of unsolved mysteries about dating and history if you read the literature. I think even a number of dealers are being fooled by the fakes, and I wondered if the above dealer thinks their item might be legitimate or just didn't know for sure. I was a little disheartened to see them selling the item under "Asian Antiques" because they otherwise seem to do a great job of only selling legitimate and properly listed items.

-Bill

The problem with canton/beijing enamels is that the real C18th pieces are so rare  that it is harder than with porcelain to establish comparisons. Even the big auction houses have very few of these items offered.

Some clues are in the painting style , although even with the real and very valuable pieces , painting on metal is much harder than on porcelain , so there are some slips and overpainting. The earliest Kangxi examples are perhaps the most valuable but they get the colours wrong in the firing , and the item is 'imperfect', just because the technique was so new.

The horse on this box seems well-done, but the tree not so much, and the bats on the base are comical. Also the blue colour of the square seal mark is wrong. Still quite impressive as a fake.

Another clue is in the weight , I think.

I have never handled a real C18th  canton enamel box, but I imagine is is quite light and delicate , more copper-weight than bronze-weight. I have two canton enamel censers which are very heavy for their size, and must be new. 

In light of Today’s great lesson on Qing bronze as money by Xin, a heavy bronze box would be a very expensive item.  I dought this is QianLong and most probably modern and really new, not a ware indicator or handling bruise on it.  

I have no idea of enamel, but if I saw the painting on porcelain I would say it's modern. The faces have this nondescript style you don't find before the 2nd half of the 20th century, and these could be even 21st century. Just my opinion though.

Thanks for all of the insightful comments!

Regarding weight, I don't put a lot of stock in it for dating purposes (that didn't sound right, lol). I have pieces from each period that are extremely light and delicate, and others that are very heavy and substantial feeling. Almost all Canton Enamel is copper, and I see quite a bit of variation in thickness of metal as well as thickness of the enamel substrate. The literature tends to say that the earlier stuff is heavier, but as a general rule I don't think it's correct. Unless, of course, you're talking about some of the very early imperial pieces that were painted on solid gold! They must be unbelievably heavy.

The borders are definitely all wrong for 18th century, and are more similar to what you start seeing in the mid 19th century. Qianlong-period borders had a specific style and are usually very ornate, with a lot of tiny detail that you need a magnifying glass to really appreciate. Very often gilt highlights as well, which I rarely see on fakes. I can imagine how time-consuming the earlier border work was, so it makes sense why the fakers usually skip that step.

Shinigami is exactly right - Canton enamel had its own set of faces and "characters" as it were, and you see them again and again when you study enough pieces. It's quite rare to see a face that you've not seen somewhere else at some point. They tend to follow the faces in Tommy Eklof's excellent book on faces in Chinese porcelain, which helps in dating enamel as well. Here's a pic showing a small box of mine on the left, and a dish from Christie's on the right, to demonstrate a typical late 18th / early 19th export style European subject that comes up in different pieces. 

On the ebay box, the bottom with the peaches is just all wrong for the type of borders on the sides, and content on the top. It's more the type of bottom painting that you'd see on a yellow-ground imperial piece. It would be like wearing a tuxedo bottom and nice shoes with a torn old t-shirt. The bottom, imo, rules out 19th c or Republic era, and points to brand-new.

Finally, as ronm points out, the lack of wear is highly suspect. It's rare that antique Canton enamel doesn't have at least a few cracks, and touch-ups are very common, since the enamel cracks off so easily. The forced chemical copper patina on the fake pieces produces a strange color and unnatural unevenness. I'm sure the fakers will catch-up soon enough...

Omitting truthful detail is fraud!!!! And as I always say, once a buyer purchases an "estate item" on ebay the link of authenticity is lost and all you end up with is a piece of old china. At least you hope its old which very often it isn't. If this seller is so proud to advertise an estate sale then ask him which and show you the paperwork that pertains to the sale. If he doesn't want to provide this then there is your answer. Of course this sort of technique won't work on items from the far east where provenance doesn't really exist.

I can't believe anyone paid $882 for this junk. Just unbelievable. Sorry to go on so but really...HAve a nice weekend everyone.

This seller, greatantiques12, is still on Peter's handpicked list. So watch out for yourself. 

I had another post titled "Another dishonest seller?" right above this one featuring two fakes items from this seller. Please go take a look at those items that were described as 18th/19th by this seller, greatantiques12.

I am amazed not more people say something about this one like they did with ecliptic_art?

Dear Huey Doan,

I think you should take up this yourself with Peter directly. He is always open to a reasoned argument in these matters, as in the case of ecliptic_art, a strategically confusing dealer who, as we have seen, combines the real with the fake in her listings.

Regards,

Alan

Posted by: Alan Fletcher

Dear Huey Doan,

I think you should take up this yourself with Peter directly. He is always open to a reasoned argument in these matters, as in the case of ecliptic_art, a strategically confusing dealer who, as we have seen, combines the real with the fake in her listings.

Regards,

Alan

I will just take notes for myself, Alan. Peter picked out real items from that seller, so as long as we do not go to other items OUTSIDE of his list, we will be ok. Thanks for your feedback so far.