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Hi everyone,
I was just going through some old plates,when I noticed that two plates (18th century?) that I bought together, with the same pattern, are different from one another. I wondered why this might be, so I thought I would see what anyone here thinks. I will put up some photos of them together, then separately.
The plate on the left has a crack and I will refer to it as such. I will now share images of the plates in separate posts.
Best wishes,
Julia
Cracked plate: This is the one on the left it is slightly heavier than the other (384g) and slightly smaller: 12.5 cms x 21.7 cms and 2.2 cms high. The glaze is also much bluer, than the other (but not as blue as another similarly shaped 18th century plate), the edge of the footrim is whiter, the white enamel flower is nothing like as worn, and the enamels of the flowers are much more glass-like. Here are some pictures, hope they are not too small, I was worried the tepot ones were too large for the site.
Second plate has no cracks just a little rim fritting. This one weighs 367g and measures 21.5 cms x 22 cms and is 2.5 cms high. It also has the remnants of a brown dressing on the rim. The footrim is yellower. The enamels are kind of flatter and the central flower is very worn. By the way, the last photos in this post and the previous one are deliberately taken in sunlight to try to highlight where there is/was gilding.
Thanks for looking.
Best wishes,
Julia
Forgot this one from the uncracked plate. Can you see difference or am I imagining them? I think next time I may leave the photos a bit bigger.
Kind regards,
Julia
Julia,
to me, both are old and nice antiques. They were fired in different days or different times. Some well designed patterns were made in years or generations. It was impossible to make them exactly the same by hands.
thanks
Charles
Cj
Hi,Julia
they are nice,one with the paint on top of glaze is imar style is older of two,
with out seeing the bottom it look Chinese late 17th to early 18th.century export.
I miss seeing the photo on top of bottom of two plates , Chinese started copying Japanese imar in late Ming. Period
John,
Famille rose porcelain began in yongzheng period and became popular in Qianlong period. They fired twice, first with glaze in high temperatures, then with painting in lower temperature. Thus, earlier Famille-Rose has a phenomenon of lose painting, especially blue color. Old painting used natural color, they painting always stand above glaze. Modern copy uses chemical color, painting are flat. Never heard Famille-Rose were copied from Japanese Porcelain.
Charles
Cj
Yes Charles rose patterned did but I believe the Chinese copying Japan imar came later.
Where all the paintings is above the glaze that is if I read the history correctly
It been awhile since I look it up will go back and read up on thank Charles.
Your plates were made around the mid 18th C. probably early Qianlong period. They are done in what was basically a stock pattern in Famille Rose, which by then had been used in China since the last couple years of the Kangxi period.
Labor in making and decorating porcelain was done a by a fairly rigid division of labor. From potters to specific decorators applying only certain colors before passing the plate onto another person who handled other colors. Some pieces passed through dozens and dozens of hands in the studios where they were done. The plates themselves were also made at different kilns which can account for variations in weight and foot rim shapes. Though they were all made to similar size standards.
Famille rose was first used/invented in Germany and brought to China by Jesuits. In any event, this particular patterned plate was made in fairly large and numerous sets for export. Including Platters, tureens and tea sets.
I hope this helps, they are very good quality plates!
Best Peter
Peter
Hello,peter
maybe you can sort this out for me , when you go and pull up Chinese imar
porcelain you get plates like Julia to me there's not lot different between
famille rose,and imar. Thank John
Hi everyone,
Thank you all for your input, it is very helpful and good to have discussion. I initially thought them possibly, maybe, Yongzheng until I saw how blue one was so I thought maybe Qianlong. So, early Qianlong makes me feel I am getting somewhere, a;beit slowly, in my learning path. 😉
I am particularly grateful for the explanation of the process of production. I had forgotten that it isn't just one potter or one kiln even if it is one pattern! I am so glad you think they are good quality, Peter, as I may have to put them on Ebay, too! I am always so reluctant to sell anything I really love but sometimes needs must!
John, I am not sure why searches on Chinese imari bring up plates such as this. Possibly it is because people have described their items as Imari or it may just be the search picking up only on some of the search terms. I would definitely call these famille rose but is the gilding usual? To be honest, I hadn't really noticed it until when the sun hit shone on the plates, today.
Thanks again for all the help.
Best wishes,
Julia
hi John,
Julia is right about why they come up. Some folks have a hard time knowing the difference between Famille Rose, Wucai, Famille Verte, Famille Jaune, Doucai and so forth. I've seen lots of things listed as Famille Verte and is Rose..
So don't let it confuse you. If you want to see Chinese Imari. Look around Christie's, Bonhams or Sotheby's in Search using the auction house names.see what come up linked to them.
Hey Julia, glad it was helpful I find the idea that many hands make a piece rather fascinating.
Best to you both, Peter
Peter
Thank,peter
I just finished reading Gothenburg Chinese exports porcelain post again time line run together
Maybe some things to talk about.
Hi Peter,
Yes, I agree and somehow it makes my plates feel very real in that you can see the work of different artisans, doing the same thing their way.
Thanks again for the help, everyone.
Best wishes,
Julia
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