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Hi,
I am thinking of bidding on these snuff bottles. They are both missing their stoppers and are described as 19th c. The faces on the blackish one look right for late 19th c, I think, although I don't recognise the mark. The glaze seems very iridescent, is that ok?
I also think (hoping to be corrected if wrong!) that the colours and decoration on the other bottle look ok for this period, too, but does the base look alright? It is very clean and bright!
Sorry about the photos. They bottles are so small (largest 3.5 ins) that I couldn't easily get a good ones without moving loads of things, so I downloaded the auction ones.
If I get them I won't keep hold of them for long as I simply want a chance to study them, so do you think if I paid around £75 for the pair that I might hope to get my money back or near enough? I don't have much experience of these as I have previously only bought and sold a couple that I picked up very cheaply.
Thanks for your help.
Julia
Hi Julia,
Not my area but I think these are modern tourist type snuff bottles. Odd shape imo. Giovanni would know for sure as this is his area etc.
Just my thoughts.
Mark
Dear Julia, do not hope of getting them for 75 pounds.
Be sure that they will go much higher. 😉
Regards,
Giovanni
Giovanni, thanks for replying. I did wonder as there are now 12 people watching them. If they are interesting, maybe I can spend more and hope to make a profit as well as learn something! Are you please able to tell me anymore about them? I would also like to know which is the one that interests people most?
Mark, I am certain that if you saw them you would think that were most likely of the period rather than modern. I am sorry that I couldn't get decent photos.
Dear Julia,
sorry but I have good reasons for not answering to you by now.
For the moment, be sure that it is much better, and also for your interest, that you will come back on this after the end of the sale. Also for the point of view of learning.
Sorry again but I am convinced of being on the right side. Please come back at the end of the sale.
Regards,
Giovanni
Giovanni - I wouldn't dare to play poker with you, forget about it!
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Dear Giovanni,
I have all sorts of things running through my head but I will be patient and not say anymore except to ask: is it ok to bid on them?
If Mark is correct and these are fakes and part of some elaborate plot, I would rather not bother. It does sound as though I haven't a hope in hell of getting them for whatever reason, but if you are telling me not to bid I won't. If you would rather, you can email me privately to stop me bidding [email protected]
I will be back later. This all sounds so intriguing!
Julia
Well, you are right so far, Giovanni: I won't get them for £75, they have already sailed past the estimate in pre-auction bids.
Sold for £220. I did bid and was tempted to go £240 but when it starts getting to huge amounts of commission and I am not sure they aren't part of some scam, I decided it was better to stop.
The man they belonged to had some other lots there and I did get one of them for a good price. So I am not empty handed!
Dear Julia and all,
Here the reasons why I thought better to not answer.
First, you said that your initial plan was to bid about 70 pounds for them, and I was sure that they will fetch much more. Actually, at the end they went for much less than what usually they reach, I was expecting not less than the double unless the one with the dragon is not what it looks to be by your single picture.
Second, and more important, we are on a public Forum, open to anyone, and those bottles was on the net, visible to anyone, they were not on a local auction house nearby you, I know because I too saw them a few days before. Now, suppose that they were very valuable Imperial bottles (they are not); what would have happened to the final price if somebody said it on a public Forum? And suppose, again in that case, that other members here was interested in bidding on them: they would have killed me! For these reasons I tend to not give opinion about things that are on sale, visible to anyone. It is not good either for you and for others.
Third reason. I am a collector of snuff bottles and have a many time personally experienced suggestion: NEVER, really NEVER, buy snuff bottles for investment (which was your intention). DO NOT DO THAT, unless, of course, you find an Imperial bottle, AND YOU KNOW FOR SURE THAT IT IS IMPERIAL, at a street market for a few bucks. Only buy for your pleasure, do not think in investment.
The reason is that the whole World related to the snuff bottles is a real shame. ALL the big auction houses, all them, do not have real experts. They experts are just playing a role, that is that of feeding the circle built up by less than an handful dealers exploiting the pocket of a close club of millionaires, most of which do buy only for the prestige of showing each other how big is their pocket. It is simply that. Tell me: does exist another field in the antiquities market where almost everything it is judged important only if it has passed through the hands of a single, always the same, person? Who on top is a dealer?
The “experts” of the major auction houses are there only doing that: does the bottle have the imprimatur of that person? Then it is ok. If not, no way.
In the porcelain field, if a vase is Kangxi, it is Kangxi anyway, being it have been found in the rubbish or coming from the collection of the Pope. In the snuff bottles field not: the more important thing is the God Provenance, not the nature of the bottle.
You can have the same exact sister bottle of a rare one sold by Sotheby’s (which of course, if it has been there, it accomplishes the GOD Provenance rule, i.e. coming from a billionaire who may know nothing about snuff bottles) and offer it to them: they will invariably refuse it because of lack of provenance, regardless if it is obvious even to a blind that it is the same. Or you are part of that circle, or there are no chances.
I like to translate the word “provenance” with “shameful lack of knowledge”.
Then dear Julia, I am pretty sure that for whatever price you could have bought those bottles, you would not get more for them if you were trying to resell them.
Just for your knowledge: I do sell only items as described. If I say that a bottle is 19th century, it is 19th century. Well, of the few bottles that I have sold on ebay, I always get less than what I paid them.
As for those bottles, the black background one is mid 19th century, Tongzhi. The one with the dragon, unless more pictures will prove not is Guangxu. Their value is that of the sale, or just a bit more.
Regards,
Giovanni
Dear Giovanni, and all -
What an intriguing thread ...
As he has great knowledge of this subject, it was very interesting to hear Giovanni's thoughts on the world of snuff bottle collecting, perceptions held within and concerning such, and the 'values', or otherwise, achived and paid for these pieces ...
@julia -
Personally, I belive you right to stop when you did, especially in regards to incurred commission costs and Giovanni's comments above - but pleased to hear you were successful in acquiring another piece ...
Stuart
It was indeed interesting, thank you, Giovanni. I did rather suspect your reasons for not saying anything about them as we have been in this situation before. Luckily, I didn't want to buy them to own them (I would have gone higher) so it didn't matter whether or not I knew they were valuable. In the end it was down to me and my judgment of what I was prepared to risk losing, rather than what I might gain.
As I said in my first post, I really just wanted to study them and hope to get get my money back. I did look at them again this morning (i needed to measure the height of a table!) and I found out who they had come from and how he acquired them. I am pretty certain they are both what they appear to be. I could have gone higher, but I decided not to take the risk. After what you said, I don't regret that at all and am pretty pleased I made the decision myself.
I liked the black one best. 😊
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