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This vase is sold by a seller who is a member on this forum (avionsunantique). He has a vase for sale described as qianlong period that has already reached $800 with 4 days left.
In my opinion, the enamels and style of the dragons isn't correct for qianlong or late-qing. There is also a few pink flowers that are strangely painted. I think it is a 20th century vase. I would like other members to share their thoughts on it.
Personally if you are not involved in the deal then it is pointless getting involved.
I mean that in the nicest possible way and also will add that your post could be construed as auction interference.
Vic
What do you mean? It is a public auction and therefore open to public discussion. From my understanding, this forum is an open discussion to help collectors to buy asian antiques on ebay and other online auctions. That is the purpose of this website and if you disagree with it there are other forums, like gotheborg, who does allowed the discussion of items currently being sold. If all posts mentioning current or past auctions had to be deleted because it might be "auction interference" I think this website would be more than half emptied. Maybe Peter should also stop all his weekly videos because some sellers might get their feelings hurt when he raised doubts about the authenticity of their items? Which happens in almost every video he makes. Is it auction interference as well?
Sellers are liable for the claims they make because buyers may be paying good money thinking they are buying something it isn't. There are also sellers who engage in criminal fraud on ebay by knowingly selling fakes and giving them made up attributions and fake provenance (absolutely not the case with the seller mentioned above) . Should we also not be allowed to talk about it because it may affect the price achieved and be bad for their business? which I hope it does
Imagine it is one of my or Giovanni's pieces,do you think we would appreciate it if you put off bidders or caused bidders to retract their bids ?
Personally I see nothing wrong with opinions ( after a suitable time has elapsed post sale and delivery),but they are only opinions.
I think the Vase is superb,very well painted,lovely soft enamels and a beautiful piece.
Vic
I understand your point but this vase is being sold as qianlong period and it isn't. If the vase was proven to be from the 18th century then you would be right and I would apologize. It is not a matter of being nice to one another but rather to make accurate claims when asking money for a piece. Buyers interests knowing what they are bidding on have priority about over the sellers not being happy about their inaccurate claims being questioned. Questioning an item on ebay isn't a personal attack to avionunantique, you or giovanni. The discussion was about the vase itself, not the seller.
For instance, Avionunantique also have this wonderful vase. In my opinion, it is accurately dated to the republic period and of very good quality.
Bidders are looking at the same images and forming their own opinion on its age and are engaging in the auction based on their own assessment.
Vic.
I disagree with this mentality. I know buyers have to do their own research to enjoy collecting chinese art and many times it is greed that make them purchase the fakes thinking they found a bargain. But to take the position and say: we should let them get scam and they are fully responsible for being too stupid or greedy is just morally wrong and I think encourage criminal and predatory behaviors. It is not a personal opinion or assessment, the vase isn't from the 18th century. that's it.
Hey Springmeier and Shine,
Tricky discussion indeed. I see Springmeier's point of view, I believe this forum is exactly here for that purpose and conversation such as this one shall not be kept quiet but solved. Having said that I also understand Shine's discomfort towards the seller. After all he is one of our peer and I am sure that if there is a mistake in regards to dating it is probably not intentional. We also have to all agree that thoughts on here remain opinions and not facts and as one the members on here has it on the bottom of his comments "we shall all take it with a pinch of salt" 🙂
Almost identical case like with those snuff bottles and Giovanni resisting himself from saying anything during the bidding - we have to respect someone's wish and modus operandi. Now we can see clearly it's just a matter of personal approach and own book of laws. It is indeed dualistic problem - we can see 2 different sides of the same coin with pros and cons for both of them!
To complicate it more we have to mention 2 different claims - owner's one - what if he or she, knows better and what if he or she doesn't know better or what if he or she knows or not but still deliberately goes for - oh what the hell? And another one, in this case Springmeier's - are you 100% sure this vase is not as described? I am not 100% confident it isn't, however... My own opinion is that it might not be of the period but much later - I find the shape as not correct and decorations, however nicely done, seem completely off to me. High quality Qianlong items have that distinctive grace, I don't see that here... I think it is a very well made copy. There are still 4 days to go and I think there will be a small battle, I think it will finally go for something around 3k and If I am wrong in regards to the age, then it means the buyer will get a real bargain.
I do not mind expressing my thought as you can see 🙂 we are all adults and ultimately all the people willing to pay anything for this or other item should be fully aware of what they are doing, if they're not... welcome to real world then boys and girls 🙂
Kind regards,
Adrian
Feel free to browse the store:
www.malkaart.com
Inquiries:
[email protected]
I have even better one form same seller - forgive me, please (or not) 🙂
Again, people are bidding and I do not really think I will interfere with my humble opinion - at the end of the day - who am I?
How many people around the globe will see this post? 20? 35?
So... I think it's a nice example of late late 19th C revival - colours are not typical for Kangxi and that's a giveaway in my opinion.
People, potential bidders, Martians, whoever - they have to decide themselves.
If I will list anything on ebay - feel free to express your thoughts and opinions, doubts and claims as you wish, right or wrong ones - I and every other dealer, we're all working on our own reputation and name, therefore if somebody is deciding to provide a specific date of an item - face the consequences and that's it.
Kind regards,
Adrian
Feel free to browse the store:
www.malkaart.com
Inquiries:
[email protected]
This one is an easy . It obviously isn't kangxi. The vase I first posted was more interesting to discuss due to being more ambiguous whether it was late 19 century, republican or post 1950 and would make for an interesting discussion.
I am not sure why discussing pending auctions is suddenly an issue. Even Peter is doing it weekly raising suspicion on items that later sell for thousands of $$$$. I've been in member on this forum for over 2 years and all prominent members never had any reserve doing so...
Also, I sincerely think it won't affect the final price even if everyone here say an item is a brand new fake. 3-4 members said the blue and white "yuan" vase sold my Chamberlain Antique was a new replica and it still achieved $9000. It will likely sell to a chinese buyer who has never heard of this forum and can't even read english properly. I sold dozens of chinese antiques on ebay the past few years and these things are bought by chinese with broken english 90% of the time.
Thank you for bringing up this interesting vase.
I still remember when I first saw this vase, 2-3 decades ago. I saw it from a distance, and initially I didn't know what to think. I still remember asking to handle it - the first thing I did was turn it upside down looking for a mark. I had one hand over the mouth and the other somewhere on the side. Something fell into my hand over the mouth (probably my right hand). I looked in my hand, and there was an old piece of paper saying it was qianlong, 18th Century. I still remember looking at John (who owned the vase), and saying to him, I don't think its that old - I was thinking Republic. He looked at me calmly and softly said "don't be so sure". It looks today, exactly as it did 20-30 years ago. Back then, he was the local Chinese porcelain expert - something others seem to call me today.
This is a very interesting vase. It's not until you get really up close, with high magnification that you see how good it is. It has the soft enamel tones that appear just prior to qianlong. The design, with the expressive dragons is fabulous. But that said, how do you decide if it was made in the 1700's or the 1920's? There are lots of things you can say suggest qianlong (like the subject matter, enamels etc), but none of them exclude republic. For me, the deciding factor was the slight orange peal texture to the white ground. Its very slight, and may or may not show in the photos. I have never seen a republic piece that had that. You see it in a more exaggerated state in the late 1800's, and some republic examples - but not like this.
It took me a while to come around to John's position, but I have done, and I'm comfortable with that conclusion. I believe this vase is exactly what it appears to be. I'm curious why it wasn't marked - I suspect it was because it was not made to pretend to be something it isn't. FYI, if this were a republic vase, it would have a qianlong mark on it!
I have a bowl in my collection, that is unmarked. Probably a decade ago, I took it with me to a seminar I attended by Bill Sargent (then curator of chinese export at the Peabody Essex Museum). I remember him telling me the only reason it was not in the imperial collection, is because it had some kiln frit in a small part of the glaze. I had mistakenly believed that if an imperial kiln piece was not perfect, it was smashed - apparently some were unmarked, and left intact.
I'm always interested in hearing people's comments. If you don't want to comment in public, you can always write to me privately, [email protected]
I understand your point but this vase is being sold as qianlong period and it isn't. If the vase was proven to be from the 18th century then you would be right and I would apologize. It is not a matter of being nice to one another but rather to make accurate claims when asking money for a piece. Buyers interests knowing what they are bidding on have priority about over the sellers not being happy about their inaccurate claims being questioned. Questioning an item on ebay isn't a personal attack to avionunantique, you or giovanni. The discussion was about the vase itself, not the seller.
For instance, Avionunantique also have this wonderful vase. In my opinion, it is accurately dated to the republic period and of very good quality.
This beautiful vase is from Daoguang period, 19th C.
www.wyssemaria-art.com
[email protected]
Dear Avionsunantiques,
Fascinating story. Obviously you have the tendency to list items with incorrect/misleading dates. That is a fact and I think it's quite common among sellers. Majority of Chinese 'antiques' sellers I see on the fairs and on the internet also is doing exactly same thing. As Springmeier pointed out - targeted are Chinese buyers with broken English, who are also greedy and they do not really care, I see them on the fairs everywhere with smartphones in their hands aiming at items and some 'experts/advisers' on WeeChat instructing them what is worth buying. Their ultimate goal is to find authentic item but they know very well they can easily resell good fake with profit. And there is no limit moneywise - exactly same thing happens at top auction houses...
In terms of the your vase I think that Republic is very generous dating (isn't that the reason it doesn't have the Qianlong mark?) and I do not really see how 'the slight orange peal texture to the white ground' can be a determining factor?? Maybe somebody much more experienced and educated than myself could explain, please?
You are entitled to have your giveaway, so do I and I repeat this - shape is a giveaway - out of proportions and quite far from Qianlong.
Kind regards,
Adrian
Feel free to browse the store:
www.malkaart.com
Inquiries:
[email protected]
I understand your point but this vase is being sold as qianlong period and it isn't. If the vase was proven to be from the 18th century then you would be right and I would apologize. It is not a matter of being nice to one another but rather to make accurate claims when asking money for a piece. Buyers interests knowing what they are bidding on have priority about over the sellers not being happy about their inaccurate claims being questioned. Questioning an item on ebay isn't a personal attack to avionunantique, you or giovanni. The discussion was about the vase itself, not the seller.
For instance, Avionunantique also have this wonderful vase. In my opinion, it is accurately dated to the republic period and of very good quality.
This beautiful vase is from Daoguang period, 19th C.
Hi Xin,
This is the picture on the bottom part of that vase:
And you are confident enough to say it is 19th C, Daoguang period?
Feel free to browse the store:
www.malkaart.com
Inquiries:
[email protected]
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