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Hi,
Here are some of the faces I mentioned earlier. I was surrounded by so many different faces often on pieces (trying to be?) from a roughly similar period, that I decided to take photos and make sense of them at home - not that I intend bidding on all these things, I am simply interested and I don't own Tommy Eklof's book. Some 19th c faces are very easily recognisable, especially in consideration of other aspects of the piece, but some are harder. Would you say that these are roughly correct in order of time?
1. This has been made into a lamp, so no base photo. Would you agree sometime around 1870-1890?
2. A small, worn teapot with a very damaged Guangxu (I think) mark on the base. I think that seems correct.
3. This vase I would also think is late 19th c, the shape is very typical, I think the base looks ok but I find the painting interesting as it is much more tidy, precise and almost angular, yet the face are pretty much in keeping with the first two.
4.This has a stamped Tongzhi mark, so probably later and the rim is gold not brown, as with the previous one there is a strong use of orange (something else I have been noticing recently), even in the faces. I am guessing this one could be a bit later than the previous one?
5. This is a plate with a Guangxu mark on the back. Lots of orange, the correct pointy faces, but the expression is more like earlier - or later - prettier women. It has also the more fluid style rather than the straight lines which appear in a couple of the others. At first glance (and that is all I really had) it is a nice looking pate, but I am going back to check it isn't printed - there is something about the red rings around the border.
6. Then this one which has something in common with the previous ones in the eyes and with nr 3, 4 & 5 in the use of orange and general in terms of the eyes and neatness, also the use of orange, but it isn't quite the same, is it? The others have an almost comical, sly look to them, whereas these ones look more unpleasant. The shape is later, too, isn't it?
Any comments are welcome, I am not entirely sure of the point of this post, but it interested me a lot and I started to wonder about the use of colour to spark associations with certain periods and whether that might be a faker's trick.
Thanks for looking,
Julia
Hi Julia,
as I don’t have my book of faces at hand I can only give an estimate. In my opinion no. 1 is late 19th century while no. 2 is a bad fake and probably printed. No. 4 is Tongzhi/Guangxu. No. 6 is Republic.
I always find Kangxi revival difficult. The faces are so simple that they are easy to fake. The arm on no. 3 looks a bit strange and no. 5 doesn’t really convince me either.
Birgit
HI Birgit,
Thanks. No 1 is very nice, it is a large vase/lamp and I intend bidding on it - as it seems do several other people. I did wonder if 2 was printed, but as it is a really messy item all round, I couldn't see the point of faking something that would have little value - unless, it is to establish some feature as genuine in order to pull off a deception with a better item.
I checked on No 5, it isn't printed but the breaks in the circles make me think it is unlikely M&P. The orange is also more of a red. I did take more pictures but they need re-sizing.
I also have concerns about the tidiness on 3 it is far more like the republic one.
I was interested in this because those faces are easily recognisable but also easy to fake.
Julia
Hi Julia,
My estimates on age by face/other:
1. Guangxu period
2. Post 1970's PROC
3. 21st century
4. Guangxu prtiod
5. 21st century
6. PROC post 1980'S (glaze!!)
Pretty much in line with dear Birgits thoughts etc.
Mark
Thanks, Mark.
It is interesting that the two with the clean cut lines are not what they are trying to be because when you compare them with the first one the difference is very apparent, even though the face styles are similar. Fakes rely too much on those distinctive faces and the reds/oranges/greens and ignore the spontaneity of the genuine items, as is often the way.
The plate,dish nr 5 interested me because doesn't feel old, it is heavy for its size and it seemed to be too much of different things. This is another photo I took of the base this morning:
And I got a better photo of the bottom of number 6, which I think does suggest it is 1980s or later.
Thanks for all your help!
Julia
Still not sure about no. 6, the faces look good. Tommy Eklöf has a category for „double bottom eyelids“ that can be dated to the 1920s if I remember correctly. I have a 1920s vase that has the same faces and also the cube with the wrong perspective. But as I was wrong with the brushpot I might well be wrong here too so it’s better to buy no. 1 which is a really nice item.
Birgit
I have now seen a similar item to number 6 at an auction elsewhere dating it as Republic. By the way, I am not sure you are wrong about the brush pot, there are two different opinions as is often the case. It is like with history, you can either argue the issue from what went before, or evaluate it in terms of what came after.
With all periods there is that transition time as one moves into the next, it doesn't happen overnight and one artist may hold on to one aspect of the old style and another artist will keep hold of something else. The blurring varies, I see it as something organic that develops so as long as the items are authentic for the period (eg something like orange peel), I am happy to see variations in pieces during that phase before one can say with conviction that the new era is established.
I just don't like things that are deliberately produced to deceive. I have no such doubt about nr 1!
If I recall correctly in this week's address by Peter he mentioned something about porcelain with a bright shiny reflection and how you should avoid.
Weight is also as you know, Julia an important factor in determining a pieces probable dating. For example the unusual heavyness of the plate is a good indicator of a modern production.
In addition I was recently watching one of Dr Lori videos on determing age of chinese vases and jars etc. According to her if the interior is ultra smooth without ripples it indicates that the piece has been mechanically scooped out. If it was done by hand you would be able to feel the ripples.
Mark
Hi Julia and Mark, I think I can live with the brush pot being from the 1950s.
Great masters may have been copied quite early. Simple Republic stuff like no. 6 however wasn’t deemed collectible until recently. If I had my faces book I would copy some examples but I’m on holiday in the middle of nowhere.
Here’s my 1920s vase as an example for the „double bottom eyelid“ category:
Birgit
@imperialfinegems I too like to watch Dr. Lori and I can understand feeling the inside of vase for rings and surface but I do not understand when she pushes on the outside of the vase (especially with gloves on), exactly what that is telling her?
@imperialfinegems Nevermind, I watched the episode again, she presses on the exterior to determine texture of the potting and glaze and checks the interior to feel potting rings and texture. She is a favorite.
The double eye-lid look is striking. Even the kid looks like he just got off a 12 hour flight!
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