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The estate sale owner gave me this cloisonné as a gift.

 
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Adams Asian Art
 Adams Asian Art
(@imperialfinegems)
Mark Adams
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7022
06/06/2022 9:58 pm  

The cloissonne box cleaned up really well. 

Beautifully rendered. 19th century. 

Mark 


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
06/06/2022 10:27 pm  

@lotusblack Well, first, let me say I'm glad to hear my advice on estate sales is having a positive influence on you (and perhaps others). What number in line were you?

The rug is very nice, but I've had a hard time selling the rugs I've owned over the years, but $500 is a most certainly a very good buy for such a fantastic looking rug.

I saw this sale, but I was not drawn to it due to the amount of pre-Columbian pottery in the first dozen or so photos, so I lost interest...should have gone through them all more carefully.

Now that I've reviewed the photos, it looks like the prior owner's interests were with archeological related artifacts, so the early Shang dyansty Ju vessel, sword hilt, and other items were probably legitimate....quite valuable.

This bronze ding appears to be Warring States period, so worth about $15,000-20,000... perhaps even a bit more...it looks quite large.

bronze ding

 


   
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 Yi Zhang
(@zhtail)
Honorable Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 324
07/06/2022 12:32 pm  

The question might be authenticity. How to know that as some fake could look convincing?


   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4239
Topic starter 07/06/2022 12:37 pm  

@zhtail so a dealer from pawn stars was buying the bronzes he has a gun that shoots a laser at the bronze it can tell the mineral and element composition of the bronze it uses this data with known examples. The gun is used by all major auction houses a price tag for this equipment is $40000 that’s what I been told. It also works with porcelain 


   
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 Yi Zhang
(@zhtail)
Honorable Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 324
07/06/2022 1:01 pm  

That’s very impressive 


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
07/06/2022 2:05 pm  

@lotusblack Brian, that is very interesting info on the gun.  I belive it uses x-ray to determine the metal content.

I am aware that jewelers use the device to determine the exact content of gold in jewelry.  So, it does make a lot of sense to me that the devices can be calibrated to measure any type of mineral / metal content.  You simply need to know the exact ratio of the composition of the bronze...which has been published.

However, this would not prove age, so @zhtail brings up a valid point about authenticity still remaining in question.  BUT, given the quality and extensiveness of the overall estate, there is likely some evidence or record of the item's purchase, and the photos posted for the sale do not show any signs of widespread fakery with the other archeological items in the sale.

I'm not aware that the x-ray gun can be used with porcelain as I thought it could only be used on metals, and porcelain is primarily silicon, a non-metal, but perhaps this warrants further study on my part.


   
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Sharon P
 Sharon P
(@sharonp)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 4507
07/06/2022 2:07 pm  

@lotusblack Rick, Cory or Chum or one of the regulars who come in to verify, maybe we'll see you in the background of an upcoming episode.


   
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2706
07/06/2022 2:11 pm  

@lotusblack 

Hi Brian -

Concur with Greeno and Mark, the cloisonné box cleaned up really well …

A beautiful example of type, and an incredible generous ‘gift’ to receive from the estate owners …

Stuart 


   
Jeremy Beer, Julia, Sharon P and 1 people reacted
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4239
Topic starter 07/06/2022 2:20 pm  

@sharonp I wasn’t there when they were I’m just going by the family and auctioneer. As for the gun I don’t really know how it works this was also what was told to me but when the device showed it was old the pawn star person bought the items that was clear. Tim they recorded their purchases so yes most of it have documentation from good sources but I did see some items that were copied they were all labeled as such. One thing was clear the family was in no mode to deceive they wanted it to be clean and honest if something was questionable the family pulled the item.


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
07/06/2022 2:29 pm  

@lotusblack Here's info on the XRF gun....I might treat myself to one for my 52nd birthday this October if all goes well at Christie's!

Based upon a quick look at the info on XRF analysis, I don't think it works on porcelain.

https://www.getty.edu/publications/artistryinbronze/conservation-and-analysis/36-tykot/

https://www.thermofisher.com/us/en/home/industrial/spectroscopy-elemental-isotope-analysis/spectroscopy-elemental-isotope-analysis-learning-center/elemental-analysis-information/xrf-technology.html?ef_id=CjwKCAjw7vuUBhBUEiwAEdu2pEzaRegmPLKvlu7bTaUmQVKHEvc9FL519qpIld9zUqgtgnvmBtCs4xoCiDsQAvD_BwE:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!3652!3!554194360712!b!!g!!%2Bxrf%20%2Bgun&gclid=CjwKCAjw7vuUBhBUEiwAEdu2pEzaRegmPLKvlu7bTaUmQVKHEvc9FL519qpIld9zUqgtgnvmBtCs4xoCiDsQAvD_BwE

 


   
Jeremy Beer, Sharon P, Ming1449 and 2 people reacted
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4239
Topic starter 07/06/2022 2:36 pm  

@greeno107 if it works on just bronze holy smoke you can just zap and go. That’s pretty amazing since bronze is so highly faked. I can’t afford that kind of tool my wife would slap the crap out of me.


   
Jeremy Beer, johnshoe and Sharon P reacted
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
07/06/2022 2:42 pm  

@lotusblack Honesty, I've come across so few archaic bronzes, I can't say it would be worth the investment.  However, Mark sent me some info that it works on enamels of porcelains (as those are made from metal compounds), so maybe there is some wider use for the device.

However, I live (and probably will die) by the rule that you should be able to judge the quality and subsequent age by how well an object conforms to known period examples.  Not to dwell on my theory that the enamels and porcelains of genuine period pieces are being refurbished into objects of rare (and valuable) designs, but if correct, then the $40,000 would not be of much use.


   
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