@xin_fawis Thank you for the NPM photo.  Sadly, it is low resolution, but I put it next to the Sotheby's example anyway...here it is:

So, I agree that these bowls look near identical.  Had we not gone through all of our investigation, I would most certainly have said that the two photos are similar enough that the bowls are of the same period and quality.  Again, thank you for finding all of this great information and sharing it.....I desire for discussions like this.

However, we did go through a very detailed discussion, so in the spirit of looking very closely at every detail, I would like to point out that there are still some discrepencies.

Pointed out with red arrows, you can see that the use of brown tipped leaves in the NPM example is much more distinctly rendered than the Sotheby's example.

Cirled in red, the Sotheby's example seems to have a round patch of light color green enamel, while the green leaves are more evenly colored in the NPM example.

Finally, while this is very likely the differences caused by the photo, the blue lines and overall shade of green seem very slightly different.

None of these things would necessarily disqualify the Sotheby's example from being genuine, but I point them out because the origin of this discussion started with the critique of Sotheby's for having listed the bowl as 20th c., and your criticism of their decision to do so appeared to be on the basis of the just the high sales result.

I now know that you had a lot of additional information to support your reason for the criticism.  You have very strong evidence supporting that the Sotheby's bamboo bowl is genuine.  However, you must agree that the above comparison with the NPM still shows some differences, right?

Do you have additional information regarding the rendering of the European scene plate?  I can not think of a good defense of such a poorly rendered scene, and such strangely fired enamels, but I'm open to hear your ideas.

Regarding the sepia falangcai bowl, it is a wonderful story of a lost treasure being re-discovered and appreciated for exceptional quality that it fully deserves!  I, too, discovered a lost Qianlong falangcai mallet vase that I sold at Johan Auction in Beijing in 2016 that brought 16 million RMB.  The experience was life changing, and in pursuit of additional knowledge, I purchased Porcelain with painted enamels of the Qing Yongzheng period (1723-1735)which was published by the Palace Museum.

Since I don't read Chinese, I have relied upon the highly detailed photos which I've studied for the past 4 years so that I should never make the mistake that Mr. Bonney and Mr. Freeman did in thinking that a genuine falangcai masterpiece was mearly a Republic period copy.  The book is especially helpful with showing how the surface of the enamels should look, with bubbles, variations in color, texture, etc.

Doucai is so very different than falangcai in the manner of its textural appearances that I can not speak with any degree of confidence on how genuine falancai enamels should look (not the rendering, but the physical attributes).  If you have this knowledge, I would be very interested in hearing more.

This has been a very thoughtful discussion...thank you!

@greeno107 

Hi Tim, now I am back home and have time to reply. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the comparison. I can upload better images that I downloaded from the website. Yes, there are differences. And indeed the bowl from the NPM collection is better than the one from Sotheby's. Not only the brown/red tip, but the green enamel is cleaner and softer. But the overall picture shows me the characteristic of Yongzheng porcelain. 

As for the dish with the European figures, I found another example at the Toguri Museum of Art in Tokyo. But they don't have better pictures online, just a small one. I think there are two different facial designs. One is on the specimens from the Hamburg museum, which includes the Sotheby's specimen. The other is the example posted by Stuart, which was copied by Qianlong and is similar to the one in the Toguri Museum. My theory is that the Sotheby's example may be a prototype. In my experience of reading the archives of the Qing Palace Bureau of Internal Affairs (Bureau of Manufacture), Yongzheng made many suggestions for designs  and really gave very detailed comments on almost everything. He even knew (almost) all the names of painters or craftsmen in the palace workshop. There are a lot of stories to tell. I will continue my research. Maybe I can find something in the archive.

I saw your Falangcai vase with scholar scene at the Johan auction. I know their boss Mr. Bian. My teacher is a good friend of his. It was a great find. Your vase has no mark. If it had a mark, it would be much more expensive. Well, you're rich enough now. You have a good eye and sense for such things. 👍 

I also discovered a lost treasure - a Yongzheng Falangcai pear-shaped vase. A similar one can be found in the catalogue of Eskenazi's 15th anniversary exhibition. He thought that his vase was the only surviving specimen. Unfortunately, I could not convince the owner to sell the vase to me. This vase will be for sale at Christie's in Paris in December.

I want to hear story about this.

@xin_fawis Was that suppose to be a link? 

If the items which sold for many times there estimate were genuine then Sotheby’s reputation is in tatters.

Or were they reproductions bid up to create a provenance and will never be paid for?

The market needs to know.

@greeno107 

That's a panorama  image I found on the Johan auction' website. I think this image is on the mallet vase you owned, right? Would you share the story with me?

@xin_fawis Oh, I see. I can tell you most of the story publicly.  There was a big problem near the end that I can legally tell you, but I prefer to do so privately. I think it is impollite to talk about another person's reputation for everyone to read.  Anyway....

In October of 2016, I attended a sale in North Carolina.  The house was nice, but not extraordinary.  However, the home was filled with very high quality antiques, including Asian antiques.  So, my wife and I travelled from Florida to the town in North Carolia to attend the sale.  The mallet vase was not in any of the photos and we did not yet have the exact address of the home.

The estate seller released the address 24 hours before the sale, and immediately my wife and I drove to the house...we were #1 and #2...nobody had arrived to the sale at this point. 

It was a long drive, so we spent most of the day sleeping in the car, but I was curious to look through some windows too see what treasures were in the sale, but not in the photos.  It was at this time I saw the mallet vase.

From the window, I could see the beautiful color, and I immediately recognized the mallet design as being an import shape.  So, I took a photo through the window to look at it more closely.  I could see the price tag - $8.

I went back to the car to research the vase on my laptop and I remember telling my wife, 'hey....they have a million dollar vase in this sale!'

In about 10 minutes I found the Christie's examples that sold in 2012.  I told my wife, 'oh...I'm wrong.'  At that moment she was thinking I was making jokes and was a little bit angry with me.  Then I said, 'it's not a $1 million vase.... it is $3.5 million vase!'

The rest of the time waiting for the sale, neither of us could sleep.  We were too excited.  Then something strange happened.

The actual property owner, an older man (I would gues well into his 80's) showed up at the house with an assistant (it turned out to be a nurse...the gentleman was not in good health).  The gentleman entered the house, but it seems he could not remember the password for the alarm system....for 20 minutes the alarm on the house was ringing and the police came.

The nurse did not know what to do, she was very upset about the alarm, so I did my best to help the older gentleman to keep him calm and try and help him to remember his password to turn off the alarm.  Eventually, we stopped the alarm. 

The gentleman was very appreciative and asked if there was anything I wanted to buy, and that he would let me buy it right then.  I explained that I did not want to create a problem with the seller by buying ahead of the sale, but I asked If I could see one item (the mallet vase), which he was very happy to let me look.

Upon inspecting the mallet vase, I knew right away the quality of the porcelain and rendering were superior to anything I've physically handled in my life (but I had only been buyin/selling Chinese porcelains for about 6 years at that time).  The vase had a thumb sized/shaped break on the mouth, but it did not extend into the design.

After inspecting the vase, I put it back in its original spot on a table, thanked the gentleman, and returned to my car to wait with my wife for the sale the next day.

On the morning of the sale, about 100 people showed up, but I would guess only 5 Chinese buyers (I should say Chinese people who were there to buy .... there may have been American (caucasian) buyers, too).  So, my wife and I made a simple stategy for when the sale started.  She would run and grab the vase, pay and leave.  I would stay to buy other items.  And, that is what we did.

However, the Chinese buyers were very insisant in seeing the vase, but my wife refused to let anyone take photos of it.

After the sale, we returned to Florida.  On the way, my wife and I discussed what we should do about the vase.  We were concerned that the vase had damage and would not be acceptable to Christie's or Sotheby's, but we also knew the vase had a lot of value.  At the time, I always estimated damaged porcelains at 1/10th their hammer value....so I had valued the vase at $300,000 or so.

I wanted to get some advice on restoration of the vase, so I called a long time client, let's call him Mr. X, who had told me about a Qianlong vase he had sent for restoration.  I thought he might offer some good advice.

I told Mr. X what I had just bought and the damage, and I asked if he could recommend a restorer.  He asked that I send him photo, which I agreed to do.

After send the photos, Mr. X called me back, but instead of giving me advice on restoration, he offered me $50,000 for the vase.  I laughed.  I remember saying, 'Mr. X, if you offered me $300,000, I'd probably take it, but $50,000 is not a serious offer.  Thank you, but no.'

Mr. X explained that he and a friend were going to partner, have the vase restored, then resell it.  He then asked me to consider his offer, and ended our call.

My wife and I discussed the offer.  Mr. X was a trusted client and we valued his opinion and his prior business, so we came up with a generous counter offer.

I called back Mr. X and offered him 50% of the sale for $25,000 if he would use his expertise to oversee the restoration and sale of the vase.  Naturally, he agreed.

Think about it.  I valued the vase at $300k, half would be $150k, and I sold it to my client for only $25k.  I was very generous to Mr. X.

As you know, the sale of the vase was handled by Johan in Beijing. and Mr. Bian did an excellent presentation of the vase.  However, along the sales process, Mr. X would call regarding some very unusual requests.  My wife and I were not comfortable with these requests, so we began to document every conversation because we were concerned that we might loose the vase or not get paid.  Many times, we felt forced to comply with Mr. X's requests because we were worried we might loose the vase altogether.

Ultimately, the vase sold for a very good amount, and over the next year we received most of our payment. but very slowly in pieces. 

However, as we expected, Mr. X called one day and advised that the buyer was not going to be able to pay the full amount and we would have to settle for less than agreed upon.  Fortunately, I had an earlier agreement with Mr. X that guaranteed my full payment, so I sued Mr. X, and under the advice of my lawyer, I accepted a settlement that was close to the total amount owed.  In other words, I won.

Let me say that there were many other issues that occured that during the sales process that could have amounted to criminal fraud for Mr. X.  However, my attorney advised me of the cost of pursuing such a case (around $100,000 and another 2 years), so my wife and I decided to let the matter pass.

There was no confidenciality agreement at the end of the lawsuit, so I am free to discuss all aspects of it.

Unfortunately, I feel my relationship with Johan (Mr. Bian) was permantly damaged from this situation, and I suspect that he only played a small part (and likely unknowlingly) in this event, but it is difficult to say for sure because he would not give me specific information directly, only to Mr. X, and I could not trust if the information was true or not.  I would have like to maintain a good relationship with Mr. Bian, but we were not on equal footing of trust.

Still, the whole event was very exciting and rewarding.  I was sad to have been taken advantage of by my trusted client, Mr. X, but life goes on.  It has not changed me or my opinion of the many Chinese (natiionality) collectors I know whom I am friends with.  But, it would not surprise me if Mr. X has told a different story, making me the bad guy, and shared it with all of China.  Such is life.

Wow, what a story!  Are you allowed to show a photo of the vase?

@greeno107 Mr X. sounds like a real piece of work. Glad you came out the other side in good shape, but I imagine that was a very stressful ordeal. Onward and upward. 

That is precious, glad you brought the guard dogs on your adventures.

@greeno107 

Significant amounts of money can certainly make people act out of character!  Most collectors don’t realize how difficult it is to place a piece with a major auction house when one is unknown to them.  It is a huge help to have an intermediary already known to the auction house experts in the field.  I had a similar situation years ago where a good dealer friend vetted a piece from my collection and then used his contacts with the auction house to eventually get it placed in a major Hong Kong sale.  The auction house paid my friend a finders fee based on a percentage from the seller/buyers commission collected by the auction house.

Dear Greeno,

it is the first time I heard of a Western collector selling through a Chinese auction house.

I have often been warned about that, it is extremely risky. You ahve been very lucky in having been paid, for what it has been told to me.

Is there a reason for not trying to sell through the major auction houses?

Giovanni

@clayandbrush I had the same concerns that you have shared.

Johan auction seemed to have a good reputation and had a specialty auction for damaged pieces.

However, it was ultimately the recommendation of Mr. X who insisted the vase go to Johan. In fact, he consigned it without my signature on the consignment contract, and it was ship immediately.

During deposition, I learned that  Mr. X received $50,000 from Johan for his work acquiring the vase… additional evidence he was working only in his self interest, and not as an equal partner.

I was fortunate to have documented every conversation we had in text (writing), and I saved every recorded message Mr. X sent me.  

Honestly, Mr. X took me for granted, but his own carelessness with his messages and promises was the undoing of his plans rob me.

Beautiful vase. Thanks for the photos.