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Hey all. A very rare bronze has been in my hands for 10 years sitting on the shelf and i only started researching it a week or so ago. Im not going to share the subject matter as yet as i would like a complete unbiased authentication of the seal. It is oval and is embedded into the centre rear of the piece. You can see it is embedded as there is no glue residue or weld marks so it would have been put in while the bronze was still workable. So its a copper alloy completely distinct in colour from surrounding bronze patina. I gently cleaned seal to allow for character identification. Its pinkish colour shows a mottled patina on the seal. The bronze has not been cleaned at all. So its two characters read oshimoto seiji or he is known as seiji kiyoshi. I have done a comparison check with his seal and the seal on mine is identical to his seal on a silver bronze (goose stepping on frog okimono)down to characters and plug style seal. This type of seal is reflective of seiji/ kiyoshi workshop in the Meiji period. So i will upload pics of seal. Including his on the silver bronze. Thanks if you can assist. This bronze if the seal is athenticated is extremely rare and there is no example of it anywhere and i have done a rigorous search. By the way the bronze is lost wax and is 1 piece. So here are pics. So i am confident that it is authentic. Tell me im wrong.
Welcome to the forum, Shane. I'm not sure it's possible to authenticate on seals alone, but there is a difference in the way 清 is written on your piece. Notice the lower right part of the first character. On the example it's written as 月 but on your piece one of the horizontal lines is vertical.
These are two different ways of writing the same character.
@craig okay i get that. The seal is just looking at it a bit smaller than the one on the silver bronze goose. So I have done some research on the piece itself and do feel its of the quality that oshimoto represents remembering that they were not always true to the character. What would you like to see from me to help your decision peter. So in terms of the seal itself can you tell me of quality and the fact its embedded into the bronze which was from my research reasonably common from the japanese. Should we start there.
My appologies craig i called you peter.
Hi Shane and welcome.
When I consider Oshimoto's works, I have to first consider what is relevant and documented in immediate context. His works are generally attributed to the parcel gilt with silvered bronze goose and frog okimono sculptures seen around. There may be more documentation out there in Japanese context languages websites, but the general surface dig isn't too well captured in English regions. AI doesn't help too much either in digging yet.
I will agree with @craig as the signature is slightly different in a few key spots. It may not mean much though. However with fine quality works of his nature, integration of a seal itself into the work is generally keen into how well formed the work appears to cast on the eye. If it stands out like this in contrasting patina, coloring, and a raised casting relief, to me, that is a red flag.
Without further context of the work itself to judge the work in character, it is difficult to say otherwise in confidence if this is his work. Documented seals can help dissuade a red flag if direct comparisons are found, but limited info available doesn't really help to solidify it yet to point back to his work. If you wish to post more full photos of the work, I'd be happy to look it over. His work is quite masterful in quality. If not, no worries.
@craig thanks for that craig. Im currently in the process of researching the full object privately due to its unusual subject paired with japanese casting.
Would you consider a seal of this character (with vertical stroke form) to be within the stylistic range of seiji school or seiya workshop or does the carving look outside their known examples.
Im not going to ask for authentication as im more curious to see if it aligns or diverges from any others that yourself or others may have encountered.
@pbarski93 thanks preston i love the reply. So im going to put up various pictures of the bronze without giving away the subject. Its very important atm that the bronze is not revealed in its fullness as the subject matter paired with the japanese casting is very unusual. Im going to put both flashed and unflashed up for your perusal.
Okay preston i have some photos of subject where i feel you can tell its patina and quality. Ive also put another close up of seal showing how it is pressed in plug style and please realise i did clean the seal for identification purposes. Im hoping that these images show to you. Im pretty confident that this is not a reproduction piece but rather a 1 off piece designed and cast for the western market. It has never been outside or cleaned while in my hands. 10 years. I have been told to wear cotton gloves as well. Which i am now doing.
A) natural patina
B)quality of workmaship
C) pitting etc showing lost wax casting
D) patina in and around seal showing this seal has undoubtably been pressed in while casting is still hot and workable. Its fit is perfect.
Thanks preston
Hi,
Welcome from me, too.
Could you tell us how you acquired this piece, please?
I have not come across this artist before and know nothing of bronzes, but I do know that seals can be copied far more easily than a work by the artist. Therefore, I can only reiterate that authenticating a seal is not reliable without the context in which it is placed.
Your reluctance to show the item because it is unusual, coupled with the issues mentioned by Craig and Preston, make me suspect this is likely to be a copy.
We really do need to assess the quality of the piece before authenticating a seal mark.
Julia
@julia thanks julia. Im not trying to fob everyone off and i understand you and others wanting to view the piece. So i acquired the piece a good 10 years ago at a garage sale. As i do like a good bronze i purchased it. I never really did anything with it even when we had our antiques and collectables shop on the central coast. The advice i was goes like this. Post the seal on a forum and then see if its legit. See if i can find if its a true seal within the style of seiji kiyoshi and by not showing the full bronze allows the person looking at seal to give their undivided attention to the seal rather than looking at the bronze subject and saying its a fake. Reproduction etc. This bronze is like none ive seen and through comparison research there is not one anywhere else. For me this is not a reproduction. It is extremely rare to find a japanese seal on the subject that i have. It is lost wax cast and it is Meiji era. When it all comes together as i expect it to i will post pics of it.
I do appreciate your concern in this however i will continue to look for verification of seal and characters until someone gives me the ok.
Shane
Hi Shane,
Whoever told you to only show the seal mark first for those reasons quoted is sadly mistaken in my submission.
Japanese bronzes are not like Chinese bronzes were everything is faked for obvious reasons.... Very rarely are Japanese examples faked especially from masters.
Sure there are a large number of tributes done by students of the master at the time and later. But you can in most cases distinguish between them not by way of the seal but looking at the overall piece for comparison and more so with the quality.
The Meji period was the pinnacle of the highest quality bronze master pieces which have not been reproduced since imo.
Mark
@imperialfinegems thanks for that however this post is purely about the seal. Not the subject. The subject is irrelevant in my point of view. I should not have said authenticate. If people are on here that have knowledge on seals then from a technical point of view they should be able to comment on the seal itself as its own entity regardless of the subject. Make, metal, embedded. Quality etc.
So if i was someone who knew about this seal or seals in general my comment would look like this.
Coppery colour
2 characters
Japanese
Patina seems true around edges which says it embedded at the same time as casting. Lets look at characters. Etc etc.
Thats all im after thanks mate i appreciate input.
I was only able to find two examples from this master.
As you can see these are almost identical to each other. One is from a museum and the other that was sold.
Now if you carefully compare the strokes to yours you will see that they do not match at all.
Of course it's entirely feasible that the style and manner of the seal changed during his lifetime.
Mark
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