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But I think this plate is the most interesting piece in the sale. Peter talks about in the video and compare the enamels with the neckless vase at Doyle. It could possibly be worth millions if it's imperial falangcai Yongzheng mark and period.
@julia I agree, why not leave it more open-ended, either without a date attribution, or with "probably" or "possibly" included in the description. Like Peter said in his video, it would be nice for Sothebys to clarify what happened here, but who knows if that is something they will ever do.
I don't know the consignor. I guess that this is someone who acquired this collection from an older generation Hong Kong collector or his family. Because this collection contains a lot of high quality Yongzheng pieces which are very beloved by Hong Kong collectors. Many of them of this generation came actually from Shanghai in the 1950s. They collected a lot of things without provenances. And also that was very common for Hong Kong art dealers (until 90s) to remove all the labels from each porcelain and clean it. I heared stories from William Chak himself. He did that too. All Sotheby's and Christie's labels were removed because clients should not know how much they bought them for.
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But I think this plate is the most interesting piece in the sale. Peter talks about in the video and compare the enamels with the neckless vase at Doyle. It could possibly be worth millions if it's imperial falangcai Yongzheng mark and period.
There are similar pieces in a museum of Hamburg, Germany. Yongzheng period.
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This bowl is described as Yongzheng mark and period but sold for 176,000 against a 4000 - 6000 estimate.
I don't think it's later-enameled. I compared this one with other similar pieces in museum collections. It's of the period.
In fact, many undecorated bowls from the early Qing period were found in Jingdezheng in the early 20th century. They were part of the old imperial kiln inventory. But the quality of the enamels is totally different. It's not hard to see the difference, if you're familiar with this type.
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Thank you, xin. What is the name of that museum?
Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe Hamburg
https://www.mkg-hamburg.de/en/home.html
I found photos from my archive.
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Come on, Xin! Wo bist du? I'm impatiently waiting for the your reply. I would really like to know if the the plates at the museum are ruby-backed and if they are marked? I can't seem to find the at their site unfortunately.
Meanwhile it seems like I may have found the comp. Christie's 2017, The Imperial Sale, May 31, Lot 3029:
http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2017/05/23/35314814.html
@xin_fawis Thank you for that information. Before I make a remark, I want to make clear (agian) that my training in the field of Chinese porcelains has been mostly through personal study, and I recognize how many more scholarly collectors there are who know far more than me. You are certainly one of those people.
That said, based purely on the appearance of the items that have so far been shown in this post, I completely understand what Sotheby's has done with their low assessments.
Quite honestly, they look modern to me.
In fact, this year more than ever, I've noticed these 'rare' discoveries showing up at aucton... William even posted one recently with the Heritage auction. You posted one about the Doyle's European piece. They seem to come with good provenance, but honestly, provenance in other fields of art has proven a very very bad way of authenticating art, and many museums have looked quite foolish relying on provenance.
With respect to Chinese porcelains, I recognize that there are lots of great masterpieces to be found still (I've found more than my share), but when you look closely enough for a long enough time, the 'mastery' of the art doesn't seem to measure up to other known examples. Yet, they still achieve incredible sales success at auction. Why is that?
Is the Chinese porcelain market so much strong than years before? Are the pieces so much better than years before? Is there a sense that these pieces are 'running out', so the demand is higher? Is the economy so strong that money is more available?
I think the answer to these questions is, no to all.
So, what's going on?
It could be that the knowledge of top collectors is weaker, or perhaps just more tollerable of variation/imperfection, than years past, so subtle changes in style, fineness of rendering, and color appear to not deter buyers from paying top dollar, and objects of lesser quality and newer age are passing through the auction process as genuine.
But, it could also be that there is intential misleading going on.
I wonder, which is the larger market, the sale of genuine mark and period pieces, or the sale of fakes? I think the latter.
So, hypothetically the successful sale of high quality reproductions (and by that, I am not suggesting brand new objects, but possibley modified 18th/19th c porcelain that have been re-decorated/modified) could provide a foundation for elevating the prices on lesser quality fakes that currently flood the market.
For example...
The European themed falangcai vase sold by Bonham's....$2 million dollars.
You, me, and others all acknowledge that the quality of the rendering of the vase did not measure up to the V&A Museum example sited by the auction house. I do not accept the rending as genuine...it defies logic that such quality would leave the Imperial kiln.
Further more, even if the rendering of the vase was a perfect match to the V&A example, the missing neck and cracks should have been plenty of justification for a much lower result regardless of rarity. I can attest for this since having just sold a huge imperial Yongzheng charger that would normally bring $2-4 million USD in perfect condition in today's market, but it only realized $350,000 plus premium at Christie's. How is that?
It is not sour grapes on my part, but rather my personal experience that tells me that there was something else is driving the price of the cut down European theme vase, and probably these same forces are at work with these other examples you've cited.
This kind of manipulation has been prevelent in mainland China (as I'm sure you know), but perhaps it has finally entered into the USA unbenounced.
Honestly, I think the lesson to be learned by these recent high results is that we need to be very cautious about using the high sales prices (the ends) to justify the purchases we make going forth (the means). The best and only method that we should use needs to be based on the factual and rational assessment of the quality of the work as compared to well established, known examples (preferrably in museums).
It is all very interesting.
Many thanks for the additional pics. Much appreciated. Both ruby-backed and with six-character marks within double-circles. And then with the Qianlong mark and period example at Christie's I think we've found the comparable examples Peter talks about in his video and that there should be little doubt about the plate at Sotheby's is mark and period.
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Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
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