Dear Errol,

I am sorry to read your news. There is nothing I can say to console you except express some sympathy.  I have been lucky with my purchases on line I guess all have arrived safely. I think some shippers mistakenly believe that  if they put fragile stickers  on their packaging carriers will take extra care unfortunately this is not the case. 

It is nice to hear from you again despite your bad news. Think the forum has missed your often inciteful posts.

Regards

Michael 

Sorry to hear the news Errol.

I as a seller can advise that the seller is responsible to pay for the return. I am expecting a returned item from Australia and have to pay for the return.

Just out of interest why did you open up a PayPal claim and not an EBay claim ?

Vic

Hi Erroll,

I’m so sorry to read this. It’s so upsetting because when it happens you’re struck by the upset of the destruction of the work of art AND the fact that you are facing weeks of hassle in trying to sort the mess out. It’s horrible.

This is why I don’t buy outside the UK unless it is from someone I’ve purchased from before and therefore know they’re good sellers. Every week I see items that I love, particularly in the USA, but I don’t risk it. It’s just not worth it. 

There are so many lovely things in the US and the Netherlands, and sometimes at bargain prices! But I resist!

I agree with Vic, it might be worth opening a case on eBay? Contact the seller, send him/her the photos, if the seller sells a lot of Asian art, tell him/her that if it isn’t resolved honourably that you will be forced to inform Peter Coombs at Bidamount in order to protect other buyers. 

Demand a refund and state that you are happy to return the item at the sellers expense. It may be that the other people who purchased the other paintings also received them broken? If so, the threat of so much bad feedback could make the seller refund you all and take the loss as a lesson learned?

good luck,

Nic

Hi all:

Thanks for all of your kind comments. I have for some reason always used PayPal for dispute resolution because they claim that one will always get one's money back  if one is dissastisfied with a purchase. However, they should add to that that the buyer will have to pay all of the costs associated with returning an item. I have not used eBay for that so I cannot comment whether their policies are different. The other advantage of PayPal is that they can withhold the money from the seller's account until the matter is settled. I doubt that eBay can do that.

I think a case can be made that there is a difference between returning something because one does not like an item (in which case the buyer should probably pay the return costs if the item was shown with all the necessary disclosures) and returning a damaged item when it is obvious that the packaging was insufficient to protect an item, in which case the seller should pay the return costs.   

I do not know whether eBay will take up a case that has already been disputed with PayPal. I sent PayPal several photographs of the damaged item as well as photographs of the inadquate packaging. It's true that simply placing fragile labels on an item has very limited effect.

I have also sent all of this information and the photographs to the seller. He inititally responded that he would pay the return costs, but has gone silent now that PayPal has virtually ruled in his favor. I assume that he feels that he has very little to lose in taking this position. A single negative review on eBay does not make a big difference. Moreover, eBay has changed things over the years so that they actively discourage negative reviews. We have to realize that Chinese antiques are a big business now and there is very little concern for how buyers feel and what they experience.

The reason I posted this information here was to try to alert other buyers. I know it is difficult with all of the eBay scammers around, but I think that sellers such as this should be put on a list so that their items do not appear on bidamount.com regardless of how good the items are. However, the maintenance of such a list would be rather challenging.

I think the only rule for safety is to restrict oneself to sellers who one knows.  I have never had a problem with sellers in the Netherlands or in Sweden. For some reason, sellers in the U.K. are often the culprits. Sometimes the item is intact, but it is rather distasteful to have to unpack these often food-stained boxes in which old newspapers have been used for item protection. As I have posted here before, they not infrequently use boxes they pick up at supermarkets and that are obviously unsuitable for Chinese antiques. I did not mention it in my post but I had a virtually identical experience with another bird painting from the UK about one year ago. The difference was that the seller was honorable and immediately paid the return shopping costs after I had provided him with the invoices.

As you point out, dishonorable sellers are aware that returning items is often costly and a big hassle for buyers. It is a real hassle having to call PayPal multiple times and each time they treat it as if it's an entirely new matter and one has to retell the whole sorry story. They just wear one down. My eventual decision was that it was not worth my time and my health to try to recover $120!

Kind regards,

Errol

Sorry for the loss Errol !

Errol

I never open a return before contacting the seller. 

Indeed Shine is correct that the seller must pay for the return postage, however in that situation where the seller can only hold his hands up and say it is the truth, it got broken there is nothing to dispute, and the seller trusts you are not trying to extort money which many unscrupulous buyers have been known to do, then he will listen to you. 

Obviously we have all encountered the disappointment of a broken item. In my most recent example, i got 2 vases, and due to the way they were packed, one vase was broken, ( badly). The other vase was okay. 

I contact the seller and explain what has happened and ask what they wish to do. I suggested discounting the cost of just one vase, and in fact the seller did just that but gave me a tiny bit extra. Out of say 10 broken items. I have only ever been forced to return one, and the rest i negotiate or settle with the seller privately without involving ebay. 

The picture you have is not trash, and i empathise with your anger, i have been there but it quickly subsides and rational recovers and all your suffering from is a broken glass. The scotch tape on the back isn't all that relevant. I feel sorry for the seller in this instance, and if he got 3 returns his entire venture would be a loss. He never got full price for the pictures in the first place. 

He should have packed his pictures better, no doubt and that is always where the seller is wrong but after you cool down contact the seller and then consider getting some new glass and get a cost of repair. Then have that deducted from the seller. It wont be more than $30 to get new glass and frame. You can negotiate say an $50 refund off your original price and i am sure he will refund it to your paypal to avoid the return case or get it closed. 

You could make the sellers life hell by returning the parcel, because he would have to pay the return postage. However you have a high risk of not getting that return postage if you do not follow ebays return policy and if he was ebay uk they wont recognize Us postal. So you will have to use DHL which are super expensive. 

The picture is worth thousands as you know, so worth keeping and getting a discount through a Pm with the seller. 

I really feel bad for the seller because he possibly broke most of these pictures through his inexperience with packaging. You need to cool down and try assess what you want out of this. If i were you, i would want that watercolour. It is potentially worth several thousand without any frame,  it is a beautiful watercolor. 

You admit the frame is a cheap one, and that is all that is damaged, you have the watercolor albeit with some wear commensurate with  age to it. What can you expect of something so old. So a cheap frame got broke. Pm the seller and get $50 off and buy a frame 10 times better. 

Be logical. 

Hi SD:

You offer a lot of good suggestions and I have thought about most of them. However, some options are not apparently available in this case:

1. Perhaps incorrectly, I went through PayPal (instead of  eBay) and they insist that I have to pay for the repacking and return shipping. That was communicated to the seller and he has gone silent and has obviously decided that the best option for him is to let me return the painting at my expense;

2. The painting is not in great condition as I noted. If it had not had the glass broken I would have accepted it and hung it by the piece of string on the back - yes string. I will though see what the framing company would charge for remounting the painting, matting and framing it. I would be amazed if a seller who won't pay the return costs, would pay for reframing;

3. If I had not opened the container, how would I have known that the painting was damaged? Everyone insists on photographic proof before they'll even discuss such matters;

4. PayPal's policy is that in disputes they need to do all the communication. Despite that I reached out to the seller and got an original commitment to pay for the return shipping. Now he is just ignoring me. I contacted him before I contacted PayPal and obviously he had second thoughts;

5. I don't think the painting is worth anything close to a thousand dollars. It has tears that can be repaired I assume, but the condition lowers the value.

Anyway, I really appreciate your consideration and suggestions. I am angry about this particularly because after I won the piece at auction I obtained an assurance from the seller that it would be boxed with every possible precaution to prevent damage. They don't seem to understand though that glass is the most fragile of virtually all materials. The package had no obvious external signs of damage. However, it was obvious to me that the packing was so poor that if it was set down somewhere with other containers on top of it, it would have been a miracle if it had not been damaged.

Regards,

Errol

Posted by: ErrolL

Hi SD:

You offer a lot of good suggestions and I have thought about most of them. However, some options are not apparently available in this case:

1. Perhaps incorrectly, I went through PayPal (instead of  eBay) and they insist that I have to pay for the repacking and return shipping. That was communicated to the seller and he has gone silent and has obviously decided that the best option for him is to let me return the painting at my expense;

2. The painting is not in great condition as I noted. If it had not had the glass broken I would have accepted it and hung it by the piece of string on the back - yes string. I will though see what the framing company would charge for remounting the painting, matting and framing it. I would be amazed if a seller who won't pay the return costs, would pay for reframing;

3. If I had not opened the container, how would I have known that the painting was damaged? Everyone insists on photographic proof before they'll even discuss such matters;

4. PayPal's policy is that in disputes they need to do all the commincation. Despite that I reached out to the seller and got an original commitment to pay for the return shipping. Now he is just ignoring me. I contacted him before I contacted PayPal and obviously he had second thoughts;

5. I don't think the painting is worth anything close to a thousand dollars. It has tears that can be repaired I assume, but the condition lowers the value.

Anyway, I really appreciate your consideration and suggestions. I am angry about this particularly because after I won the piece at auction I obtained an assurance from the seller that it would be boxed with every possible precaution to prevent damage. They don't seem to understand though that glass is the most fragile of virtually all materials.

Regards,

Errol

 

 

Errol

If the seller gave you a discount would you be happy to keep the watercolor?

Hi Errol - 

My sympathies for your loss, and also that the rather poor condition was not disclosed by the seller at the time in the original description ...

Stuart

Hello SD:

Thank you for all your practical and sensible suggestions. Yes anger can make one act irrationally.

I took the watercolor to my usual framer. They removed the frame, the matting, the string etc. They now have the watercolor mounted on the original cardboard. Their plan is to remove it from that and remount it on a safe mount free of acids etc. They are reasonably confident that remounting can be done and that the tears can be managed in a way that they will not be visible.

After that is done we will reassess the appearance. If as they expect it will look okay, I will then get a new frame, glass etc. and hopefully have a nice watercolor with a suitably colored matting. I agree that this is a nice painting although I'm puzzled by your statement that it's worth several thousand pounds or dollars. Also, I think trying to get something or anything out of the seller would  be an exercise in futility. PayPal in their wisdom have decided the case apparently to the seller's satisfaction. To get a refund I have to mail it back to him, according to them, at my own expense which I assume will be about $90 if I include shipping materials. I would prefer to spend $200  - $250 on a new frame and have what you correctly characterize as a lovely painting with some deficiencies commensurate with its age.

If the remounted painting looks good, as the framers expect it will, I don't plan to stint on the reframing. The whole process with take 3-4 weeks at which time I will add a photograph of the painting to this thread.

Thank you for telling me to be logical. Yours is the logical approach and I'm looking forward to a better outcome that I originally expected.

With kind regards,

Errol

P.S. Thanks to all the forum members for the kind words!

You do not understand. While you have to pay to return the parcel, the seller will have to refund you in full including the cost of the return postage. 

I think you do not undestand ebay's return policy. You pay for the return postage with a tracker, you send the tracker to ebay and  when the seller has the received the parcel, then ebay will refund you the return postage and the full payment. So you do not lose a dime. 

What i think you expected was the seller pays for the return postage and that is not how it works with ebay. The reason in your situation that it is essential for you to negotiate with the seller is to avoid sending the return for both his sake and yours. 

A return is a huge $80 wasted on postage. The seller has to foot that bill. Yes, he was foolish and did not package it properly, and you are in a position to return the item back to him. I suggest you PM him and ask him to give you $40 to settle the entire matter. If he doesn't co operate then you can return it through ebay and keep your postage tracker, you will get the refund and ebay will have to cover the cost of the return postage. However it should not exceed the cost the seller paid, so remove the glass and just send the frame and picture. It might be alot cheaper also.

I saw Peter's video about these watercolors and i am basing much of the valuation on his appraisal. So it is likely worth keeping. If the seller does not respond with 2-3 days then get on to ebay chat and ask them to contact him to close this out before you are forced to return it. 

Your return is guaranteed by ebay, you do not lose  a penny but keep a copy of the tracker and postage receipt as their system can be a little tricky. 

Hi SD:

I have been told that when dealing with disputes, claims and returns one has to choose either eBay or PayPal to deal with the return assuming, of course, that the payment was made through PayPal and that one cannot use both. Ebay has told me that they would only take up the matter if they had been asked to so in the first instance.  As I mentioned, I filed my claim with PayPal and not with eBay. From what you have stated it is clear that eBay would have been the better choice. PayPal's policy, as I have discovered, is that unless they decide otherwise the buyer is totally responsible for the costs of the return shipping. When I told a PayPal representative in the Phillipines that I thought that was unfair she told me it was analagous to my returning an item to a store and spending money on gasoline to drive to the store. 

Anyway the whole thing is moot now since the framer with my tacit concurrence took the shattered glass, matting, frame etc. and threw it in the trash. So I cannot return it now in the original condition which is one of the requirements for a refund. All I have is the water color on the original cardboard.

Now that my irritation has subsided I'm not too concerned about this matter. I have to decide whether it's better for my health to just take a loss on this or whether to sit every day on the phone speaking to eBay personnel in foreign countries who don't understand what I'm talking about and just getting more upset over the whole matter. Also, several messages to the seller have gone unanswered. He obviously is totally uninterested.

Peter did not give an appraisal of this group of paintings. He simply said that he liked them. When dealing with value, one has to take into account factors other than the quality of the artwork and its age. Condition is important too. I agree that this was an attractive group of paintings as presented on eBay. However, they look far better I would assume as a group as presented on eBay than they would look in person because they are all of the same vintage and from the same estate. I would be truly surprised if any of these paintings had an intrinsic value of more than $300 - $400 even disregarding the framing and other issues.

I started this thread both to vent and to warn others of potential pitfalls in cases such as this. If everything you have stated about eBay's policy is correct, then the obvious thing to do is to return items through eBay and not through PayPal. So, I hope others can draw their own conclusions as to what do in the future in cases such as this.

Errol 

I agree and i am surprised paypal and ebay have a different approach, as pay pal was the sister of ebay.